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Balancing Feedback: Assault Ships

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Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2012-01-05 22:33:44 UTC
unless this stuff is on sisi, none of what any of you have posted is anything more than opinion and ****/moaning.

let it go on sisi to try before you cry foul you ******* pussies
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#62 - 2012-01-05 22:38:05 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
unless this stuff is on sisi, none of what any of you have posted is anything more than opinion and ****/moaning.


Hardly. The issues with AFs have been known for a long time, and it's not too hard to see that this set of changes still leaves some of them resolved. You don't need to test it on sisi just to find out that the Hawk is still impossible to fit, or that the Jaguar's optimal range bonus is still worthless.
Samaritan Azuma
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2012-01-05 22:55:38 UTC
The ishkur needs a dmage bonus to drones, or like the above poster said +5mb per level aling withe the drone bay space



+5% drone damage/hp per level is reasonable IMHO
Samaritan Azuma
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-01-05 22:58:04 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
unless this stuff is on sisi, none of what any of you have posted is anything more than opinion and ****/moaning.


Hardly. The issues with AFs have been known for a long time, and it's not too hard to see that this set of changes still leaves some of them resolved. You don't need to test it on sisi just to find out that the Hawk is still impossible to fit, or that the Jaguar's optimal range bonus is still worthless.





/agree......... also zarak1, this thread is about giving our opinions about the proposed changes, not showing everyone that you have issues with reading comprehension.
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#65 - 2012-01-05 23:12:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Deviana Sevidon
Assault frigs are slow ships that often have to fight very close to the enemy where the are vulnerable to neuts, webs and scramblers. The MWD sig bonus will not help so survive in the situations they have to fight in and the MWD can even be easily cancelled out by a single scrambler. A reduction to AB-mass increase would be more useful.

The bonus of the Ishkur is still weak and it could really use a damage bonus. Also why give the Enyo another medslot? With a lowslot it has a better chance to keep up with the new Retributions tank or damage.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2012-01-05 23:16:16 UTC
i don't know what you're trying to achieve, but my hawk fits just fine with small booster and mse or medium booster and injector.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2012-01-05 23:22:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaigar
Samaritan Azuma wrote:

/agree......... also zarak1, this thread is about giving our opinions about the proposed changes, not showing everyone that you have issues with reading comprehension.


This thread is about feedback from SiSi which has the changes in it..

Also playing around with fittings on SiSi with an Enyo..

Dual prop fitting works, but no CPU for a mag stab unless you want a meta DCU. Fitting it with a MWD its also very tight.

An AB fit seems to work alot better, but its a bit slow..
Captain Aanderson
Faction House Industries
#68 - 2012-01-06 00:20:41 UTC
The hawk got screwed by this update, as was said before it was always a tight fit, and now it has an extra slot without the means to put anything useful in there. For example, to fit a web with a standard AB/scram loadout you need to drop the small neut from t2 to named, the medium shield booster dropped a meta level, the damage control upped to a (much more expensive" pseudoelectron, and the scram schanged to a jb5.

If you want to fit that web on a MWD fit (so that you can control range when your MWD gets shut off because you are in scram range) then you need to drop down to a small shield booster, which turns your tank from meh to shite.

Buffer tanks don't work, because with the two low slots used for damage mod and damage control, you can't get enough Powergrid, even with the 5% hardwire and AWU V, to fit any kind of respectable buffer.

The enyo is now incredibly powerful, either the other ships need to be brought up to this level or the enyo brought back in line.

About the role bonus, the "Role" of assault frigs has never been to be slower interceptors, not to mention most AFs spend the majority of their time inside scram range, so fitting a MWD leaves them slowboating it because scrams aren't exactly uncommon.

The role bonus should be something that would actually benefit them, such as a reduction in the mass addition of an AB, so they can orbit faster, and maybe a 10% increase in speed across the board, but don't try to make them something they aren't. Especially when there is another class of ships, Interceptors, that can do that job better.

I'm glad they are getting attention though
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-01-06 00:26:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
Captain Aanderson wrote:
The hawk got screwed by this update, as was said before it was always a tight fit, and now it has an extra slot without the means to put anything useful in there. For example, to fit a web with a standard AB/scram loadout you need to drop the small neut from t2 to named, the medium shield booster dropped a meta level, the damage control upped to a (much more expensive" pseudoelectron, and the scram schanged to a jb5.

If you want to fit that web on a MWD fit (so that you can control range when your MWD gets shut off because you are in scram range) then you need to drop down to a small shield booster, which turns your tank from meh to shite.

Buffer tanks don't work, because with the two low slots used for damage mod and damage control, you can't get enough Powergrid, even with the 5% hardwire and AWU V, to fit any kind of respectable buffer.

The enyo is now incredibly powerful, either the other ships need to be brought up to this level or the enyo brought back in line.

About the role bonus, the "Role" of assault frigs has never been to be slower interceptors, not to mention most AFs spend the majority of their time inside scram range, so fitting a MWD leaves them slowboating it because scrams aren't exactly uncommon.

The role bonus should be something that would actually benefit them, such as a reduction in the mass addition of an AB, so they can orbit faster, and maybe a 10% increase in speed across the board, but don't try to make them something they aren't. Especially when there is another class of ships, Interceptors, that can do that job better.

I'm glad they are getting attention though


- Hawk trumps Enyo every time, just saying. But yes, the Enyo is a bit powerful and needs more testing
- Hawk tanks just fine, tyvm. It's not a bad thing to be a tight fit, they all are.
- An AF in scramble range is really really hard to hit before you put an AB on it. Don't knock it before you've tried it
- AFs are slower than Interceptors because they aren't to replace Intereceptors

To me, it just sounds like you want a far more powerful Hawk before you realize just how strong it is.
My medium boosted Hawk tanks hybrids without batting an eye, and can do 230dps before heat. I think that is just fine Blink

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Samaritan Azuma
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-01-06 00:52:15 UTC
Jaigar wrote:
Samaritan Azuma wrote:

/agree......... also zarak1, this thread is about giving our opinions about the proposed changes, not showing everyone that you have issues with reading comprehension.


This thread is about feedback from SiSi which has the changes in it..

Also playing around with fittings on SiSi with an Enyo..

Dual prop fitting works, but no CPU for a mag stab unless you want a meta DCU. Fitting it with a MWD its also very tight.

An AB fit seems to work alot better, but its a bit slow..




so you mean feedback = opinions? not sure what you meant there. is the feed back you provided based on your opinions?
Syclone Tracy
Exit-Strategy
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#71 - 2012-01-06 01:01:05 UTC
As has been said, you buff AF's then T1 frigs have no place in PvP for obvious reasons. But T1 cruisers are also at risk at becoming a bit pointless. So how do newer players have a hope against older players? At some point I think CCP needs to understand that a cruiser is more powerfull than a frig and should remain that way. Otherwise what is the point of having different classes of ships?

I can understand the need to balance things from time to time, however this is straight out buff rather than a balance.,
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2012-01-06 01:26:32 UTC
T1 frigates are still very capable ships, but yes some could use some love.
The same applies for T1 Cruisers.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Plutonian
Intransigent
#73 - 2012-01-06 02:07:29 UTC
CCP, why are you killing off the Rifter? That's what these proposed changes will do... obselete every T1 frig for solo PvP.

I'm not trying to be rude, but these changes seem very poorly thought out. The Jag and Wolf especially will be massively overpowered.

Honestly, how many T1 frigates and cruisers do you see in lowsec anymore? As compared to 2009? Or 2007?

Don't kill off one the most fun parts of the game. Please. Think this one through.
Xenial Jesse Taalo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2012-01-06 02:38:26 UTC
I assumed AFs were already obsoleting T1 frigs, and that people just fly Rifters and such because they are not expensive to lose.

Anyway, I don't really get it CCP. Why the role bonus? We weren't missing it before. Why an even stronger Wolf, with more slots for more armour??

Just the 4th bonus, plus one mid for the Retri. That's all we asked.

It's funny how "The Retri needs another mid" still somehow manages to spell "Winmatar."
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#75 - 2012-01-06 02:44:29 UTC
There are many, many opinions here. I'm going to point out a few things. Currently -

1) AF vs. AF

There are clear winners and losers among the class. The Wolf, for example, can spit out 300 DPS and has falloff up to 17.5km. The Enyo currently, despite having the same slot layout and the more powerful weapon system, only musters a bit over that for DPS. It also has a fraction of the range. It desperately needs to control range whereas the Wolf does not. It's clearly lackluster. The increased damage bonus and extra mid will give the Enyo a comparative boost compared to the Wolf. It's no longer a steaming pile of crap. I use the Enyo as an example but there are other AF you can say this about as well.

2) AF vs. Other Small Craft

In the arena of low sec this is very balanced. You see a wide variety of ships and something like the Wolf has just enough of an Achilles heel for destroyers, faction frigates, and even the famous Rifter to compete with it. In Null sec - most things tend towards BC and up. Increasing AF this drastically will upset the apple cart. But FFS - it needs to be upset. Going back to the Enyo - it will put out 75% of the Catalyst's firepower before modules or rigs are added. Unlike the Catalyst though, it does not have to choose between tank and gank. It can easily double the EHP of the Catalyst without sacrificing the DPS. A Catalyst that tries to tank will have lower DPS then a future Enyo.

Does that mean the Enyo is OP? No. It means the Catalyst needs a serious fitting grid increase. A Thrasher can have 400 DPS and 9k EHP. I don't see it losing it's place.

Interceptors - give them proper T2 resists and increase their HP.
T1 Frigates - More fitting, slots, and HP.
Everyone is complaining that this buff will obsolete everything else - but the correct argument is that everything else needs to be buffed! Small ships in general are competing with a landscape littered with TE, nuets, and drones.

3) AF vs. Large Craft

This is an area that AF are supposed to be good at but in reality suck. The Wolf? It can fit a Nos, large guns, and active tank. However it can only fill one of the two resist holes of kinetic and explosive. It also can't tank or kill drones due to the lack of a tracking bonus. All of the other AF also have huge problems with nuets. The changes have the potential to radically change this. I really want to field test an Enyo with Ion blasters, a SAR, a nos, and a small cap booster. Something like that has the potential to operate inside of scram range. The new blaster tracking will allow it to tear through drones like a hot knife through butter. And it will be nuet resistant. The Wolf can tank and track better - allowing it to survive better in scram range...

In short - AF can hopefully go big game hunting and are more equal to eachother. They push down all the other small ships. This needs to be addressed with continued balancing with destroyers as well as touchups on Tech 1 frigates and interceptors.

The MWD role bonus? Meh. You could use the old T2 resists bonus that was taken out of the text and slap that on as a role bonus if you absolutely had to say AF had one. If you wanted something creative - 50% bonus to capacitor. They operate against scramblers and in nuet range. AF like to active tank. They get hit with a MWD cap penalty. Give them something that let's them take a beating.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#76 - 2012-01-06 03:00:32 UTC
Why does the retribution only get a 5% bonus to tracking when the wolf gets a 7.5% bonus to tracking with autocannons which already track better than pulse lasers.

How come the retribution only gets one 5% damage bonus while the enyo gets a 10% damage bonus and the wolf and jaguar gets double 5% damage bonus. The vengeance gets a 5% damage and a 5% rof bonus. Why is the retribution given an optimal range bonus? That the job for the coercer or the navy slicer, not the retribution.

Give the retribution a 7.5% tracking bonus and replace the optimal range bonus for another 5% damage bonus to put it in line with the other dps AF's.
Zircon Dasher
#77 - 2012-01-06 03:26:00 UTC
Had a real quick spin in the new wolf...

No longer having to choose between plinking at range and going ballsdeep makes this my new favorite ship by a mile.

It used to bug me that if I wanted to tackle larger boats the jag was more efficient. Thanks for giving me one stop shopping!!

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Captain Aanderson
Faction House Industries
#78 - 2012-01-06 03:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Aanderson
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Captain Aanderson wrote:
The hawk got screwed by this update, as was said before it was always a tight fit, and now it has an extra slot without the means to put anything useful in there. For example, to fit a web with a standard AB/scram loadout you need to drop the small neut from t2 to named, the medium shield booster dropped a meta level, the damage control upped to a (much more expensive" pseudoelectron, and the scram schanged to a jb5.

If you want to fit that web on a MWD fit (so that you can control range when your MWD gets shut off because you are in scram range) then you need to drop down to a small shield booster, which turns your tank from meh to shite.

Buffer tanks don't work, because with the two low slots used for damage mod and damage control, you can't get enough Powergrid, even with the 5% hardwire and AWU V, to fit any kind of respectable buffer.

The enyo is now incredibly powerful, either the other ships need to be brought up to this level or the enyo brought back in line.

About the role bonus, the "Role" of assault frigs has never been to be slower interceptors, not to mention most AFs spend the majority of their time inside scram range, so fitting a MWD leaves them slowboating it because scrams aren't exactly uncommon.

The role bonus should be something that would actually benefit them, such as a reduction in the mass addition of an AB, so they can orbit faster, and maybe a 10% increase in speed across the board, but don't try to make them something they aren't. Especially when there is another class of ships, Interceptors, that can do that job better.

I'm glad they are getting attention though


- Hawk trumps Enyo every time, just saying. But yes, the Enyo is a bit powerful and needs more testing
- Hawk tanks just fine, tyvm. It's not a bad thing to be a tight fit, they all are.
- An AF in scramble range is really really hard to hit before you put an AB on it. Don't knock it before you've tried it
- AFs are slower than Interceptors because they aren't to replace Intereceptors

To me, it just sounds like you want a far more powerful Hawk before you realize just how strong it is.
My medium boosted Hawk tanks hybrids without batting an eye, and can do 230dps before heat. I think that is just fine Blink

and the forums ate everything I wrote.

Summary: The changes need to be better thought out
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-01-06 04:35:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
After some testing. The changes are kinda 'meh'.

So if a player wants to utilize the role bonus, they are forced to fitting a mwd. This means less fitting for tank. Now that they can last a bit longer flying to and from targets, they will quickly have their role bonus neutered once they are hit with a scrambler. Add one a web or two and possible neut and they are just as useful in fleet fights as they were before this change. Which was nothing.

Yes I am sure these will do well for the mythical solo PvP that some swear still exists in this game and even in very small skirmishes, but outside of those scenarios, the role bonus is simply ineffective where if the role bonus was an afterburner bonus of some kind, the AF could not only enjoy lasting longer traveling to targets, but also enjoy the bonus to help him keep some form of speed when hit with scramblers and webs.

Some say that the AB role bonus was terrible, but that was only because it was only on SiSi for a extremely short time and never had a chance to be adjusted. No the AB bonus should not be as fast as a mwd. This would still leave interceptors a role to catch the really fast stuff. There is in fact a middle ground to be found, no matter how much some people claim it does not exist. To say there isn't is simply daft.

Still, the change is not even a day old so more testing is needed. Anyone claiming the role bonus, new slots and bonus is just what the doctor ordered already is flat out moronic. These need to be tested in as many different forms of fleet fights as possible to see if these changes are good. Not just isolate testing to solo/ultra small combat and wave the results around like it is gospel.

Keep testing and provide feedback guys. Smile
Bob Niac
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2012-01-06 05:55:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bob Niac
Can we look at it another way? What does this version og the ship DO? More importantly.. what does it do that cannot be achieved with another ship?

Back when tier 3 battleships were introduced a very smart comment was made by a developer. "We don't want better, we want different."

Make Assault frigs stand out. Hell make them logi frigs for all I care. How about this: add a 3rd hull. That way you can have 1 tank,1 spank, and 1 utility / racial specific.

And while I am on the logi kick: Logi destroyers, please. or frigates. I don't care. this solves your problem with AFs. then like I said.. change AFs to a paper tiger and a turtle-tank. Roll with intied, escalate with bombers, scout with covops, and if you are feeling generous, lock **** down with EAS.

tl;dr Different. Not better.

[u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.