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I am confused....

Author
Revenant Kane
Cannibal Empire
BLACKFLAG.
#41 - 2015-10-20 22:15:47 UTC
I must be the only looking at the plus side.

Low skilled high SP chars in Bigships being cocky and dying to my guns.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#42 - 2015-10-21 00:11:37 UTC
Revenant Kane wrote:
I must be the only looking at the plus side.

Low skilled high SP chars in Bigships being cocky and dying to my guns.

Except the main people using this will actually be the ancient Vets who have way too much isk, to make new alts that have perfect skills for what they are flying.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#43 - 2015-10-21 00:31:34 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Revenant Kane wrote:
I must be the only looking at the plus side.

Low skilled high SP chars in Bigships being cocky and dying to my guns.

Except the main people using this will actually be the ancient Vets who have way too much isk, to make new alts that have perfect skills for what they are flying.


Well, Nevyn, that's a supposition. A valid one, but a supposition nonetheless.

I guess I'm just not as concerned as most because it seems most posters aren't aware (or choose not to be aware, as the case may be) that these vets can buy any clean, focused pilot skilled for any of the popular ships that they want, right now. Much cheaper than they will ever be using SP packs. Pilots with no history, no wasted SP and neutral standings. Pilots built in high triple digit numbers by a group of people that take full advantage of things like the PO2 specials to build for sale and no other reason.

I'm with Kane on this one. There's a fun opportunity here that should not be overlooked.

Mr Epeen Cool
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari
End of Life
#44 - 2015-10-21 01:02:36 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Revenant Kane wrote:
I must be the only looking at the plus side.

Low skilled high SP chars in Bigships being cocky and dying to my guns.

Except the main people using this will actually be the ancient Vets who have way too much isk, to make new alts that have perfect skills for what they are flying.


Well, Nevyn, that's a supposition. A valid one, but a supposition nonetheless.

I guess I'm just not as concerned as most because it seems most posters aren't aware (or choose not to be aware, as the case may be) that these vets can buy any clean, focused pilot skilled for any of the popular ships that they want, right now. Much cheaper than they will ever be using SP packs. Pilots with no history, no wasted SP and neutral standings. Pilots built in high triple digit numbers by a group of people that take full advantage of things like the PO2 specials to build for sale and no other reason.

I'm with Kane on this one. There's a fun opportunity here that should not be overlooked.

Mr Epeen Cool


It's a fair enough point.

Personally I feel like the character bazar has enough downsides and limitations that make it a bit more niche, but you're correct that people can do it.

I think that SP trading just makes it too convenient and easy. It avoids characters with bad history, bad names etc. Characters that have been made specifically for sale in a role have to be planned far in advance in the current system, so it becomes an involved gameplay planning characters, trying to keep ahead of a changing meta and changing market. The proposed system feels like it throws all that out the window.
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari
End of Life
#45 - 2015-10-21 01:03:43 UTC
TuDDi wrote:
Newer in my litle life am i going to sell any of my SP, and if i would sell lets say 50 mills of sp to a noob so he can be hi skilled, he still will be a noob. And belive me, i could sell some of them as i have been here since 2003, then the noob was practising in tetris, so i will always outskill him in my head of knowledge.


...not sure if that was a dig at my character name... but I'm definitely out of practice at tetris.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2015-10-21 01:50:17 UTC
Some of this SP will be used (or more likely misused and wasted) by new players but I am in the camp that thinks it will mainly get used by ISK rich big alliances. New doctrine because of new ship/mods/skills ? Just throw some excess moon-ISK at a batch of skill packs for everyone.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2015-10-21 11:55:49 UTC
And for experienced players who have isk? They can just pay to win
Sacu Shi
Angry Midlife Aliens
WE FORM BL0B
#48 - 2015-10-21 12:11:03 UTC
There is another game in which one can extract skills to chips and sell them to other players. It works very successfully as a method of income for some avatars as they simply extract x amount of skill, sell it, then go train it again, extract it, sell it and so on and so on.

Might be worth a read up on how that game does it successfully before getting out the pitchforks.

not sure if I can mention the game here, but a simple google search for 'chipping out ESI' will find it...
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2015-10-21 12:15:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Bastion Arzi
Ok do it. I will save money cos I will gt myself into a place where I can make isk easily via several different methods from sp I bought.

Revenue for ccp will be up at first then decline as everyone sets themselves up this way. Ccp will go bust. And this game we love will be gone forever.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2015-10-21 12:27:24 UTC
Zappity wrote:
I'm not confused. I am disgusted. The most vocal opponents' arguments boil down to a nebulous feeling of dislike which are utterly refuted in the context of a thriving Character Bazaar.

There are strong reasons to go ahead with the idea, not least of which is the prospect of increased revenue for CCP.


Nebulous eh?

Ok - lets say they did this but you couldn't use plex nor aur to purchase such packs. That it was only a pure cash store purchase.

How nebulous would the topic be to the multiple account holders who run their accounts via plex?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2015-10-21 12:39:11 UTC
Bastion Arzi wrote:
Ok do it. I will save money cos I will gt myself into a place where I can make isk easily via several different methods from sp I bought.

Revenue for ccp will be up at first then decline as everyone sets themselves up this way. Ccp will go bust. And this game we love will be gone forever.


I don't think it will go bust at all (EVE is much much more resilient than that), but it will have terribly be unexpected consequences (like the one you suggest, where rich veterans entrench even further based on a system they will use, unlike the current system that they are less likely to use because it takes up a whole character slot).

The people who support the whole SP selling idea remind me of the people who thought that "Dominion will be great for small groups". In other words, some people aren't real good at recognizing threats, they are overly-hopeful types that don't understand something fundamental about the reality we live in (virtual or otherwise), and that is "if it can go wrong, it WILL go wrong". In the case of EVE it is "if it can be exploited, it WILL be exploited".

I can't tell y'all how many times I've seen people trumpet something as a good change (in this game and in real life) and when it comes to pass and doesn't work like they thought it would because they didn't properly weigh all the variables against known human nature, those same people either remain silent or pretend they saw it coming and was against it all along lol. This looks to be another one of those situations.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2015-10-21 13:10:10 UTC
Ya know what, if they're going to do it and completely jack up the progression of the ge, they might as well do away with the diminishing returns so that it doesn't punish single toon vets.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#53 - 2015-10-21 16:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Davis TetrisKing wrote:
Characters that have been made specifically for sale in a role have to be planned far in advance in the current system, so it becomes an involved gameplay planning characters, trying to keep ahead of a changing meta and changing market. The proposed system feels like it throws all that out the window.
I admit, I've seen some real bad decisions by character builders. Like not too long ago when 20 or something Rorq pilots some guy thought would be a hot item sat in the CB forever.

For the most part, though, you only need to call the psychic hot line for about six months in the future. That's the average that builders shoot for. It's diminishing returns after that unless there's a PLEX sale or they're paying out of pocket for training.

Still, some brave souls will train characters for a year or more. But you need to have a real grasp on where the game is heading or you end up like Mr. Rorq that I mentioned above.

To sum up. Yeah, it's more involved and has more risk than SP packs but people have been doing it for a while and are pretty good at getting it right. And these characters will always be available cheaper than to make one with SP packs. Hell, as it is, they sell for less than it would cost to make them at current PLEX prices and it will always be that way unless something unheard of happens and PLEX starts going down in price instead of steadily rising.

Mr Epeen Cool
Daemeon Kado
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2015-10-22 15:00:39 UTC
Thank you all for the discussion. It's trailed off a bit towards pro and anti Skill Pack groups but it still has not quite answered the question about the break in logic between SP not mattering and SP being pay to win...

If it is resolved that Skill Pack will be pay to win even if they do not put them in the game then I never want to hear another player be snide and say the SP does not matter to new players that have issues trying to deal with vets with millions of SP.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#55 - 2015-10-22 15:43:52 UTC
Daemeon Kado wrote:
So there is a lot of grumbling about the proposed idea of selling SP packs created by other players to other players. It's being called pay to win and it seems to be thought of a a Bad Idea(TM).


I am confused though. I was told numerous times that skill points do not matter and that newer players can be just as effective as older players so do not complain about them having millions of SP more than you. But NOW if I DO get those same SP.... I'm paying to win?

Please help me figure out what fine line is being pushed here?


(Side note) I don't care either way about the skill point selling... just find the logic... odd.


Because we are all if nothing else, hypocritical bastards at heart.
ISK IRON BANK
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2015-10-22 16:07:32 UTC
BUY PLEX FOR RL CASH > SELL ON MARKET > BUY CHAR ON CHAR BAZZAR!!!

OR

USE RL CASH > BUY SP GOO AND CREATE THE CHAR YOU REQUIRED...


^^^^^^^

The above two are exactly the same and changes nothing in EVE.

This is not pay 2 win this is pay for convenience and has existed ever since being able to buy/sell GTC's / PLEX's.

If you still think this is pay 2 win, then you are confirmed an idiot, sorry and my condolences to you and those around you who have to suffer you.

Stop crying about absolutely nothing, you are all borderline on pathetic right now.
Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
#57 - 2015-10-22 17:33:19 UTC
Player experience trumps character SP every time.

SP is just a barrier to access to certain ships/modules/ammo.

Taking that barrier down a bit isn't "pay to win" it's just removing a largely arbitrary barrier. It will also likely generate plenty of shiny killmails but more importantly improve the revenue stream for CCP.

We already have the character bazaar. This just makes things easier. No actual change.

EVE needs to evolve. There aren't enough bittervets to keep it going and there aren't enough newbie masochists to replace them. Hell, this change might mean a few more not-so-masochistic newbies decide to keep playing.

"Nothing to see here. Move along!"

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."

- Hunter S. Thompson

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#58 - 2015-10-22 21:34:07 UTC
ISK IRON BANK wrote:
BUY PLEX FOR RL CASH > SELL ON MARKET > BUY CHAR ON CHAR BAZZAR!!!

OR

USE RL CASH > BUY SP GOO AND CREATE THE CHAR YOU REQUIRED...


^^^^^^^

The above two are exactly the same and changes nothing in EVE.

This is not pay 2 win this is pay for convenience and has existed ever since being able to buy/sell GTC's / PLEX's.

If you still think this is pay 2 win, then you are confirmed an idiot, sorry and my condolences to you and those around you who have to suffer you.

Stop crying about absolutely nothing, you are all borderline on pathetic right now.

Read up, it's been explained exactly why the two scenario's are totally different already.
Of course, given you are a gambling site and we know how close to the edges of rules those skirt already....... why am I not surprised you support anything that further monetizes EVE.

Sure it's not P2W, but it doesn't have to be P2W to be a massive step towards it, and a massive step away from what made EVE unique and attractive and towards becoming just another grindy MMO.
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