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[Focus Group] Tactical Destroyers

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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#141 - 2015-10-17 21:03:37 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:


A Thrasher has literally 100% the same range as a jag, both have a 50% optimal bonus.


I'm not sure why you mention that as a point.. but ok, i'm aware of their bonuses.

The optimal bonus doesn't do anything significant for autocannons, hence the fact you can scram kite an a/c thrasher with an arty jag. As the jaguar is using the bonus properly with artillery and can mitigate 50% of the thrashers dps (assuming the thrasher is smart and using barrage).

I'm responding to him saying that any destroyer fit can kill any frigate, and if a destroyer dies to a frigate, then its the pilots fault. Which is simply not true if the frigate pilot knows what he is doing.


Ah yes, by bad. Didnt really read your post, (cause obviously a af can win vs dessie and the other way around) and just saw the acs dont project on a thrasher. So my bad.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#142 - 2015-10-19 00:56:24 UTC
t3d's obsoleted assault frigates in that they took over their role for everything except maybe niche case harpies and some FW plex fights.

However, I love them.
#LeaveBrittanyAlone
Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#143 - 2015-10-19 01:06:18 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Leonardo Adami wrote:


It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad.

Edit to fix typos

Actually I don't have a problem with destroyers beating frigates. Destroyers should be able to murder frigates generally speaking. But the T3Ds are so much better than frigates in every practical sense that they completely obsolete them, they aren't just better in a straight up fight, they're better in virtually any situation. Aside from aesthetics and personal preferences, there is no reason to fly a Jag, Wolf, or Dramiel when you could fly a Svipul. It outshines them all in practically any role. Same goes for the Confessor overshadowing ships like the Succubus and Retribution. Not only does it have vastly superior tank and gank numbers, but the Confessor is actually faster and more agile than a Retribution, and with a 10mn AB fit, it outshines the Succubus in the Succubus's own role, which is going super fast with an AB. No reason to fly an AB Succubus when you could fly a 10mn AB Confessor, it has better tank, so much more damage, more versatility and range, etc.
j

Basically you're saying the minmatar ships suck and I agree. Svipul is grossly OP, don't deny that and have stated many times it's the case. I've also stated confessor shouldn't be allowed to use 10mn ab. But that post I quoted was and is bad . And I stand by my previous statement(s). I also feel all AF's need to be looked at before they balance the T3D's because as it stands they're all pretty much crap and they were this way pre t3d's it's just blatantly obvious to even the most obtuse of individuals now.

While I'm here I'll say the Hecate is very well balanced imo and the jackdaw has to much tank and not enough dps.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#144 - 2015-10-19 08:40:47 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.

So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.

Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway


It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad.

Edit to fix typos


Misguided absolute statements such as this have no business in discussion about balance.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#145 - 2015-10-19 08:53:40 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:


Basically you're saying the minmatar ships suck and I agree. Svipul is grossly OP, don't deny that and have stated many times it's the case. I've also stated confessor shouldn't be allowed to use 10mn ab. But that post I quoted was and is bad . And I stand by my previous statement(s). I also feel all AF's need to be looked at before they balance the T3D's because as it stands they're all pretty much crap and they were this way pre t3d's it's just blatantly obvious to even the most obtuse of individuals now.

While I'm here I'll say the Hecate is very well balanced imo and the jackdaw has to much tank and not enough dps.


AF don't need to be buffed the 4 destroyers that are causing all of the imbalance need nerfed.
Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#146 - 2015-10-19 21:02:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Leonardo Adami wrote:


Basically you're saying the minmatar ships suck and I agree. Svipul is grossly OP, don't deny that and have stated many times it's the case. I've also stated confessor shouldn't be allowed to use 10mn ab. But that post I quoted was and is bad . And I stand by my previous statement(s). I also feel all AF's need to be looked at before they balance the T3D's because as it stands they're all pretty much crap and they were this way pre t3d's it's just blatantly obvious to even the most obtuse of individuals now.

While I'm here I'll say the Hecate is very well balanced imo and the jackdaw has to much tank and not enough dps.


AF don't need to be buffed the 4 destroyers that are causing all of the imbalance need nerfed.


You're completely wrong in every way. AF's were rarely used before and even less so now (I agree the T3d's didn't help this one bit). They were "balanced" prior to the tiercide which was a long while ago and haven't been touched since. I know drugs in eve are good for you but no matter what anyone tells ist drugs irl are bad. Whatever drug you were on when you posted this I highly recommend you stop taking it asap.

And no the hecate does not need a nerf. The svipul needs one badly, the confessor needs to be tweaked and the jackdaw needs to be reworked so it has less tank more dps.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#147 - 2015-10-20 07:17:21 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Leonardo Adami wrote:


You're completely wrong in every way. AF's were rarely used before and even less so now



Before t3d were added assault frigates were averaging 50,000 kills a month, this has declined sharply to just 17,000. Assault frigates were one of the most popular classes of ships to fly.


Leonardo Adami wrote:


(I agree the T3d's didn't help this one bit). They were "balanced" prior to the tiercide which was a long while ago and haven't been touched since. I know drugs in eve are good for you but no matter what anyone tells ist drugs irl are bad. Whatever drug you were on when you posted this I highly recommend you stop taking it asap.


They were balanced very well vs the other ships until CCP added these vastly overpowered destroyers, hence the large number of them before the t3d arrived. You seem to have a short term memory.

Leonardo Adami wrote:

And no the hecate does not need a nerf. The svipul needs one badly, the confessor needs to be tweaked and the jackdaw needs to be reworked so it has less tank more dps.


All of them need a nerf including the Hecate (a destroyer pumping out high end HAC damage from small guns and you don't see that as overpowered? ), they are simply too powerful for what they are. The should have the stats of t1 destroyers with the adaptability because there is exactly zero chance of a t1 destroyer being anything other than fodder to these ships.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#148 - 2015-10-20 13:11:29 UTC
Assault Ships were much more popular before T3Ds came, I distinctly remember around the time just before T3Ds came seeing plenty of them in all ares of space.

I think we can all agree Svipul and Confessor need nerfs. Since they're destroyers the gank abilities should stay but something should be done about their speed / signature / tank / resist combo, because they are able to fly like frigates with HAC level tank and gank (especially with 10mn fits)

Does the Jackdaw really need a nerf though? It's a good ship but does it really better than a Caracal in any role? I've seen more people using it as a sensor damp ship than actually flying it for legitimate combat.

800 dps Hecates are a thing but don't you think that is the way it should be for a ship such as this? Eris can also get 800 dps. If Hecate is to be nerfed it should be in some other ares other than it's gank ability, because that's what makes it a destroyer. But personally I don't really see the Hecate as being OP, but I also don't use it or know that much about it.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#149 - 2015-10-20 13:17:28 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:


Basically you're saying the minmatar ships suck and I agree. Svipul is grossly OP, don't deny that and have stated many times it's the case. I've also stated confessor shouldn't be allowed to use 10mn ab. But that post I quoted was and is bad . And I stand by my previous statement(s). I also feel all AF's need to be looked at before they balance the T3D's because as it stands they're all pretty much crap and they were this way pre t3d's it's just blatantly obvious to even the most obtuse of individuals now.

While I'm here I'll say the Hecate is very well balanced imo and the jackdaw has to much tank and not enough dps.

That is not really what I said at all, but yeah some Minmatar ships do suck right now, like the Jaguar. Not allowing the Confessor to use a 10mn is pretty stupid, just nerf it in such a way that 10mn fits no longer give it frigate levels of mobility and evasion.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#150 - 2015-10-20 13:39:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
All of them need a nerf including the Hecate (a destroyer pumping out high end HAC damage from small guns and you don't see that as overpowered?


While you're at it, nerf the catalyst. Like, strip half its guns so it doesn't sit there as a 1mil hull pumping out 650dps. Roll
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#151 - 2015-10-20 13:59:50 UTC
Irony is, jaguar and wolf are both excellent AF counters to Confessors. That EM armor resist is a serious pain to get through.
When all is said and done, my preference that 10mn still remain viable for brawling fits stays. I'm happy with snipers not being able to fit them (well, I haven't found a way to decently fit a beam confessor with 10mn and have it not be crap so...).

The eve community just got a nice buff to battlecruisers, and are getting all kinds of new ewar frigs. All these things impact the lifespan of T3's in battle.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#152 - 2015-10-20 14:16:02 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
All of them need a nerf including the Hecate (a destroyer pumping out high end HAC damage from small guns and you don't see that as overpowered?


While you're at it, nerf the catalyst. Like, strip half its guns so it doesn't sit there as a 1mil hull pumping out 650dps. Roll


There is a reason why nobody uses the gank cat to take on anything that can fight back.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#153 - 2015-10-20 14:26:52 UTC
Baltec1 wrote:


All of them need a nerf including the Hecate (a destroyer pumping out high end HAC damage from small guns and you don't see that as overpowered? ), they are simply too powerful for what they are. The should have the stats of t1 destroyers with the adaptability because there is exactly zero chance of a t1 destroyer being anything other than fodder to these ships.


*squints* Harvey.. is that you? Please stop focusing on just the dps of a t3d and take it all in.

Hecate is balanced as its incredibly slow and easy to scram kite that dps. If hecate uses sharpshooter then it sacrifices its tank bonus, which makes it considerably easier to kill. If it stays in tank mode, then it has very poor range. Then that 850dps drops quite quickly. Not to mention its very susceptible to neuts, both in max gank, dual web hull config or single/dual armor rep.

Ive killed every t3d and by far, the one that is the biggest pain in the ass is the svipul, as there is no obvious counter except neuting it to hell with dual webs to hold it. Hecates and jackdaws are easy to kill as well as both are slow with big sigs. The svipul is the main issue with t3d, all 4 dont need to suffer a nerf overhaul.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#154 - 2015-10-20 14:46:32 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


*squints* Harvey.. is that you? Please stop focusing on just the dps of a t3d and take it all in.

Hecate is balanced as its incredibly slow and easy to scram kite that dps. If hecate uses sharpshooter then it sacrifices its tank bonus, which makes it considerably easier to kill. If it stays in tank mode, then it has very poor range. Then that 850dps drops quite quickly. Not to mention its very susceptible to neuts, both in max gank, dual web hull config or single/dual armor rep.

Ive killed every t3d and by far, the one that is the biggest pain in the ass is the svipul, as there is no obvious counter except neuting it to hell with dual webs to hold it. Hecates and jackdaws are easy to kill as well as both are slow with big sigs. The svipul is the main issue with t3d, all 4 dont need to suffer a nerf overhaul.


I am looking at the whole package which is why I see the need for a nerf. As said, other destroyers can hit 650dps, the problem is that the Hecate doesn't need to make the sacrifices that the other destroyers have to make to get that kind of firepower. A gank catalyst cannot for example also fit a 300hp/s tank and a prop mod (that allows the Hecate to travel faster than said cat) and a cap booster and a neut while sporting 600 dps.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#155 - 2015-10-20 15:00:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


*squints* Harvey.. is that you? Please stop focusing on just the dps of a t3d and take it all in.

Hecate is balanced as its incredibly slow and easy to scram kite that dps. If hecate uses sharpshooter then it sacrifices its tank bonus, which makes it considerably easier to kill. If it stays in tank mode, then it has very poor range. Then that 850dps drops quite quickly. Not to mention its very susceptible to neuts, both in max gank, dual web hull config or single/dual armor rep.

Ive killed every t3d and by far, the one that is the biggest pain in the ass is the svipul, as there is no obvious counter except neuting it to hell with dual webs to hold it. Hecates and jackdaws are easy to kill as well as both are slow with big sigs. The svipul is the main issue with t3d, all 4 dont need to suffer a nerf overhaul.


I am looking at the whole package which is why I see the need for a nerf. As said, other destroyers can hit 650dps, the problem is that the Hecate doesn't need to make the sacrifices that the other destroyers have to make to get that kind of firepower. A gank catalyst cannot for example also fit a 300hp/s tank and a prop mod (that allows the Hecate to travel faster than said cat) and a cap booster and a neut while sporting 600 dps.


The catalyst has projection baked into the hull and doesnt need a mode switch to project that 650dps. Unlike the hecate which has to sacrifice its speed or tank to project similarly. As mentioned earlier those fits you speak of can be easily countered due to the slow speed, lack of projection and large-ish sig of the hecate.

You are looking at the whole package, but are insinuating all the bonuses are available at the same time. Which is not the case. A rail DD, arty jag, arty thrasher and other scram kite ships (if flown properly) could but a hecate in a bad position. Larger ships are even better at nuking a hecate. Especially if it has a medium neut. I see no major issues here.

And no, i have never flown a hecate, ive just killed quite a few of them. So im not trying to prevent a nerf to my favorite ship. I just think nerfing the hecate will push it into an eft warriors wet dream when all they look at is dps. Then they take it out and realize its a joke.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#156 - 2015-10-20 15:31:40 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


The catalyst has projection baked into the hull and doesnt need a mode switch to project that 650dps.


That nets it 2km more range, this means nothing with blaster boats.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

You are looking at the whole package, but are insinuating all the bonuses are available at the same time. Which is not the case.


All of what I put was available in defence mode aside from the much faster speed which you only need to catch the target, once you catch it you swap to defence mode.


Stitch Kaneland wrote:

A rail DD, arty jag, arty thrasher and other scram kite ships (if flown properly) could but a hecate in a bad position.


Same goes for any other blaster boat.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

And no, i have never flown a hecate, ive just killed quite a few of them. So im not trying to prevent a nerf to my favorite ship. I just think nerfing the hecate will push it into an eft warriors wet dream when all they look at is dps. Then they take it out and realize its a joke.


This is the problem, you don't have to make hard choices with these ships like you do with the other destroyers. You sacrifice nothing for switching modes and the fitting room, slots and cap are all far too forgiving.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#157 - 2015-10-20 16:47:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


The catalyst has projection baked into the hull and doesnt need a mode switch to project that 650dps.


That nets it 2km more range, this means nothing with blaster boats.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

You are looking at the whole package, but are insinuating all the bonuses are available at the same time. Which is not the case.


All of what I put was available in defence mode aside from the much faster speed which you only need to catch the target, once you catch it you swap to defence mode.


Stitch Kaneland wrote:

A rail DD, arty jag, arty thrasher and other scram kite ships (if flown properly) could but a hecate in a bad position.


Same goes for any other blaster boat.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

And no, i have never flown a hecate, ive just killed quite a few of them. So im not trying to prevent a nerf to my favorite ship. I just think nerfing the hecate will push it into an eft warriors wet dream when all they look at is dps. Then they take it out and realize its a joke.


This is the problem, you don't have to make hard choices with these ships like you do with the other destroyers. You sacrifice nothing for switching modes and the fitting room, slots and cap are all far too forgiving.


The difference is closer to 4km with null. Which is huge in a frig fight when scram kiting. The catalyst can shoot about 250-300dps at scram range with null. More than enough to take down most frigs.

Hecate can swap into sharpshooter mode to get similar results (no falloff bonus though) and can hit the edge of scram with null loaded neutrons. To do this it sacrifices its tank bonuses. So id say thats a very reasonable trade off.

Once you "catch" your target. More likely when your target catches you. Dual prop fits are quite common, or just straight AB fits. Once the hecate is scrammed, its prop bonus is useless and can be escaped from assuming you have an AB. Hell ive scram kited hecates with a tornado. Goes like this. Hecate rams target, target scram/webs back and then coasts out of blaster optimal. Now its just a matter of either leaving the fight if you cant break him, or finish the fight.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#158 - 2015-10-20 18:04:51 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


The difference is closer to 4km with null. Which is huge in a frig fight when scram kiting. The catalyst can shoot about 250-300dps at scram range with null. More than enough to take down most frigs.


It cant fit a prop mod, scram and web like the Hecate can though.
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Hecate can swap into sharpshooter mode to get similar results (no falloff bonus though) and can hit the edge of scram with null loaded neutrons. To do this it sacrifices its tank bonuses. So id say thats a very reasonable trade off.


Why would you do that when you can web it into void range though?

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Once you "catch" your target. More likely when your target catches you. Dual prop fits are quite common, or just straight AB fits. Once the hecate is scrammed, its prop bonus is useless and can be escaped from assuming you have an AB. Hell ive scram kited hecates with a tornado. Goes like this. Hecate rams target, target scram/webs back and then coasts out of blaster optimal. Now its just a matter of either leaving the fight if you cant break him, or finish the fight.


Personally I would always fit an AB but the Hecate has the option of fitting an AB and a MWD, something the catalyst and Eris cannot do. As I said, there are simply not enough drawbacks on this ship for that much firepower.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#159 - 2015-10-20 18:29:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


The difference is closer to 4km with null. Which is huge in a frig fight when scram kiting. The catalyst can shoot about 250-300dps at scram range with null. More than enough to take down most frigs.


It cant fit a prop mod, scram and web like the Hecate can though.
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Hecate can swap into sharpshooter mode to get similar results (no falloff bonus though) and can hit the edge of scram with null loaded neutrons. To do this it sacrifices its tank bonuses. So id say thats a very reasonable trade off.


Why would you do that when you can web it into void range though?

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Once you "catch" your target. More likely when your target catches you. Dual prop fits are quite common, or just straight AB fits. Once the hecate is scrammed, its prop bonus is useless and can be escaped from assuming you have an AB. Hell ive scram kited hecates with a tornado. Goes like this. Hecate rams target, target scram/webs back and then coasts out of blaster optimal. Now its just a matter of either leaving the fight if you cant break him, or finish the fight.


Personally I would always fit an AB but the Hecate has the option of fitting an AB and a MWD, something the catalyst and Eris cannot do. As I said, there are simply not enough drawbacks on this ship for that much firepower.


You would fit a ab to a hecate? Thanks for showing up in this thread and thanks for making it clear what you know about them.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#160 - 2015-10-20 18:30:29 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
Irony is, jaguar and wolf are both excellent AF counters to Confessors. That EM armor resist is a serious pain to get through.
When all is said and done, my preference that 10mn still remain viable for brawling fits stays. I'm happy with snipers not being able to fit them (well, I haven't found a way to decently fit a beam confessor with 10mn and have it not be crap so...).

The eve community just got a nice buff to battlecruisers, and are getting all kinds of new ewar frigs. All these things impact the lifespan of T3's in battle.


Both jag and wolf die without a chance vs the confessor (if fit correctly, i.e 10mn beam ktiing fit or 10mn dual pulse brawling fit)