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So... how would you nerf T3's ?
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W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2015-10-18 03:16:05 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Atomeon wrote:

2 Fits shows that T3s are way overpower, Take a proteus rail Fit them with 250mm rails and use 4 magstabs. Also take a navy brutix (BattleCruiser) and do the same fit.
The result? they have exactly the same DPS and Proteus has better tank with 2 slots left (N Brutix has 3 slots left), N Brutix has a bit more buffer.
And i m not comparing oranges and apples, take both to blitz L3s. Proteus will be the winner all the time.


First of, thats pve, so vOv.

Second:

Thats if you compare a 400million ships to a t1 bc, if you compare the same thing to a astarte (which is still cheaper) the astarte does over 100dps more with exactly the same resistance profile but more ehp (or vastly more ehp but slightly lower resitances in the case of the logi sub).


And when we stay of the proteus, lets compare 2 fits (and yes i know that those arent optimal)


[Proteus, deimos wannabe]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II

50MN Microwarpdrive II
Fleeting Progressive Warp Scrambler I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Anti-EM Pump II

Proteus Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors

Hammerhead II x5


to


[Deimos, New Setup 2]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Anti-EM Pump II

Hammerhead II x5



The proteus tanks more, with 1166 ehp/s preheat and without drugs, links or implants. It also deals more dps at 832dps. And it has a bit more cap. Ontop of that it has a 12.4km scram range


However, that exact proteus comes to 590 million isk, the deimos goes for less then half that at 247million (both with fits included). And the proteus will lose sp if it dies.


And before you go, oh wow so much tank and dps, the deimos tanks 911 and deals 629dps, it also is a lot faster (1850 to 1550, is way harder to jam, locks further out, is smaller, has a sig reduction bonus, better agility and unlike the proteus has a mid for a web. Now again, one coudl argue that the proteus can have 4 mids (actually can have 5) and can have way better sensor strenght and locking range then the deimos, but if you do that you lose massive dps and you lose the scram bonus to boot.

The ishtar got punished a bit but its still the way better ship to roam in with friends (although the vni is better atm imo), you do more dps at range and are generally more usefull.



And you can continue this for every t3 cruiser, orthrus obsoletes the tengu at the moment in non rail versions or super bling 100mn variants. Legion is still good, but the nomen fills many of its roles and while the 100mn ham fit is very cool hams kinda suck atm. Loki is by far the worst.


If t3s would costs as much as hacs, and not have sp loss upon death it still would be a hard call to decide which to use. But as they are expensive, cause sp loss and are in actual use not that great you cant by no means call them op.






And since you started with pve, no t3 is better for pve (at least highsec) then a rattler or a mach, both of which cost either a lot less or the same. So no, even there t3s are not op.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#182 - 2015-10-18 07:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
W0lf Crendraven wrote:


Yes, but just in worse and in more expensive. A neut legion is a way worse curse in most small scale scenarios, loki is a worse rapier/huginn and so on. And a proteus is basicely a deimos for actual pvp and a tengu isnt bonused to rlmls so its sht in the current meta (discounting massive ffeet railfits), loki just straight up blows.

And all of them have to compete with pirate cruisers due to their price level, and the pirate cruisers atm wipe the floor with them all (by pirate cruiser i mean orthrus and gila).




If the good hacs were gone, if pirate cruisers were gone, if pirate bs were up to their old prices, if cs didnt exsit, if recons were **** again and didnt have broken role bonuses then maybe t3s would be op. But they are not.




The bottom line is that a 100k ehp ship with 1k dps that is capstable is garbage at the moment because it also is slow as hell and has no range.


Neut legion makes a far better pilgrim and can easily do the curses job but with more tank. web loki is far better than a rapier/hugin simply because it can out tank both greatly while doing the same job, proteus does every job a gal cruiser/bc can do but better aside from drones, we have just adopted HML tengus because they can do the same as a cerb but with a battleship tank and are cap stable with the prop mod running.

And again, ship cost means nothing.
Renfus
Dread Fleet
Drop Imminent
#183 - 2015-10-18 09:17:08 UTC
T3s are fine..
They're not OP and offer great versatility..
I wouldn't change anything..

But I would like to see a covert ops version.. Pirate



((( Alliance Creation ))) Corp Update Service available ( 10,600 Member limit ). ++ Free with Alliance Creation ++ Contact me In-Game.
Sleepaz Den
Artificial Memories
#184 - 2015-10-18 13:50:02 UTC
Neut legion and curses aren't even comparable. 80km heavy neut legion? Nope. 40km med neuting? Nope. This is like apples and bananas.

Web Loki is an armortanker unles you count 8+bil officer lokis as actual huginn replacements normal. Else there's a difference between 55km webs and 95km webs. A rather huge one.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#185 - 2015-10-18 14:07:46 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

And when we stay of the proteus, lets compare 2 fits (and yes i know that those arent optimal)


[Proteus, deimos wannabe]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
The proteus tanks more, with 1166 ehp/s preheat and without drugs, links or implants. It also deals more dps at 686dps. And it has a bit more cap. Ontop of that it has a 12.4km scram range

Except 2 DDAs on a Blaster Proteus is not just not optimal it is just plain bad fitting. But to try to prove your point I guess it works.
Now it you do the intelligent thing and put 2 T2 Magnetic Field Stabilizers on it you pump the DPS up to 832, 933 DPS overheated.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#186 - 2015-10-18 14:48:49 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Sleepaz Den wrote:
Neut legion and curses aren't even comparable. 80km heavy neut legion? Nope. 40km med neuting? Nope. This is like apples and bananas.

Web Loki is an armortanker unles you count 8+bil officer lokis as actual huginn replacements normal. Else there's a difference between 55km webs and 95km webs. A rather huge one.


Not really. In reality you aren't playing at ranges that long as you want to either be with your tackle, in weapons range or if solo you will be at 24-30 km range max. Plus thanks to the huge cap on the t3 ships you can make your neut legion cap stable even with the prop mod on.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2015-10-18 15:33:37 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

And when we stay of the proteus, lets compare 2 fits (and yes i know that those arent optimal)


[Proteus, deimos wannabe]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
The proteus tanks more, with 1166 ehp/s preheat and without drugs, links or implants. It also deals more dps at 686dps. And it has a bit more cap. Ontop of that it has a 12.4km scram range

Except 2 DDAs on a Blaster Proteus is not just not optimal it is just plain bad fitting. But to try to prove your point I guess it works.
Now it you do the intelligent thing and put 2 T2 Magnetic Field Stabilizers on it you pump the DPS up to 832, 933 DPS overheated.


True, in my defence it was veeery late. Still the point stands.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2015-10-18 15:39:57 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sleepaz Den wrote:
Neut legion and curses aren't even comparable. 80km heavy neut legion? Nope. 40km med neuting? Nope. This is like apples and bananas.

Web Loki is an armortanker unles you count 8+bil officer lokis as actual huginn replacements normal. Else there's a difference between 55km webs and 95km webs. A rather huge one.


Not really. In reality you aren't playing at ranges that long as you want to either be with your tackle, in weapons range or if solo you will be at 24-30 km range max. Plus thanks to the huge cap on the t3 ships you can make your neut legion cap stable even with the prop mod on.


First off, solo is no option for recon alike t3s, recons do that very well but the neut legion, jam tengu are utterly terrible at it and the webbing loki is also kinda ****. For smaller fleets, recons are miles above t3s, simply because they are faster and have so much more range. You start using t3s in really big gangs where recons would get alphaed, but thats fine imo, as if t3s were gone you wouldnt see a ton of recons, as well, they would still get alphaed.
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2015-10-18 15:40:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sleepaz Den wrote:
Neut legion and curses aren't even comparable. 80km heavy neut legion? Nope. 40km med neuting? Nope. This is like apples and bananas.

Web Loki is an armortanker unles you count 8+bil officer lokis as actual huginn replacements normal. Else there's a difference between 55km webs and 95km webs. A rather huge one.


Not really. In reality you aren't playing at ranges that long as you want to either be with your tackle, in weapons range or if solo you will be at 24-30 km range max. Plus thanks to the huge cap on the t3 ships you can make your neut legion cap stable even with the prop mod on.

It actually does make a huge difference, especially with the legion versus curse. The legion cannot get near the level of a curse. It only comes close if you brick tank it and fly in a fleet, and it still has terrible range that a Maller can do pretty much the same thing. If you are solo or small gang forget about it, because if you fit a cloak then you have to use lasers and your damage sucks and you don't get to use enough neuts anyway, if you go drone subsystem you dont get the cloak so youre still mediocre compared to curse or pilgrim
Sleepaz Den
Artificial Memories
#190 - 2015-10-18 15:42:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sleepaz Den wrote:
Neut legion and curses aren't even comparable. 80km heavy neut legion? Nope. 40km med neuting? Nope. This is like apples and bananas.

Web Loki is an armortanker unles you count 8+bil officer lokis as actual huginn replacements normal. Else there's a difference between 55km webs and 95km webs. A rather huge one.


Not really. In reality you aren't playing at ranges that long as you want to either be with your tackle, in weapons range or if solo you will be at 24-30 km range max. Plus thanks to the huge cap on the t3 ships you can make your neut legion cap stable even with the prop mod on.


So your argument is literally *The legion is better cause it is more sturdy when neuting from scramranges*? And the loki is better cause you don't need that additional range?

I'm not familar anymore with what the blobs throw onto the table yet having your huginn sit among those cerbs (and not get cut off from reps cause one damp) seems a necessity, and for solo/smallscale, the difference between a friendly 80km heavy neut ongrid and a mostly useless neutlegion (get kited, get jammed with 30SS with an active eccm running inside jam optimal) is aggravating.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#191 - 2015-10-18 17:17:42 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

First off, solo is no option for recon alike t3s


They have been doing it for years.


Ares Desideratus wrote:

It actually does make a huge difference, especially with the legion versus curse. The legion cannot get near the level of a curse. It only comes close if you brick tank it and fly in a fleet, and it still has terrible range that a Maller can do pretty much the same thing. If you are solo or small gang forget about it, because if you fit a cloak then you have to use lasers and your damage sucks and you don't get to use enough neuts anyway, if you go drone subsystem you dont get the cloak so youre still mediocre compared to curse or pilgrim


Maller doesn't get a bonus to neuting amount and the firepower from the legion is not bad considering it has both the cov ops cloak and nullification. It also had a huge buffer and comes with the ability to run its guns, neuts, scam, web and afterburner forever unlike the pilgrim and curse.


Sleepaz Den wrote:



So your argument is literally *The legion is better cause it is more sturdy when neuting from scramranges*? And the loki is better cause you don't need that additional range?

I'm not familar anymore with what the blobs throw onto the table yet having your huginn sit among those cerbs (and not get cut off from reps cause one damp) seems a necessity, and for solo/smallscale, the difference between a friendly 80km heavy neut ongrid and a mostly useless neutlegion (get kited, get jammed with 30SS with an active eccm running inside jam optimal) is aggravating.


The most popular neuting ship is the statios, a ship with no bonuses to neut range or power.
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