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[Thankyou] December - Players & Summit Reports

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Tore Vest
#61 - 2012-01-05 09:04:52 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
A Thx To CCP & The Players



At present, EVE online is as visually spectacular as it has ever been. Crucible, was a welcomed surprise as is CCP's new direction. Let us not forget what led us here, and what restored a healthy balance back to this game. YOU, the player... sent a message that was heard loud and clear to the highest levels of CCP.



Although the CSM may claim responsibility (in part or in full) for this change, it is the voice of the players that precipitated CCP's return to a perspective that made this game one of a kind. Only here could protests be followed up by (mostly) unedited forum outrage. Only here could a collective voice of untold subscriptions shake the foundations of a multimillion dollar corporation in another country.





The Backstory

For years the CSM has been a fruitless band of individuals that spoke much and achieved very little. As the years past and the frustration of the players mounted, most of the parts of EVE that were being ignored... went ignored by the rest of us. But when the straw broke the camels back, the players finally reacted. And through the efforts of the players, CCP was forced to listen and in doing so, IMHO preserved the game that they created for many years to come.





A Final Word

I just wanted to through that out there, for the sake of all of those out there who helped make this change. Masked beneath "you hate goons" and "CSM emergency... blah blah" and all the rest of the propaganda that floods these forums, is a unique community that can inspire change that not only effects a digital universe, but the real universe as well. Without YOU none of this would have happened. It was a hard transition, but you may have saved EVE online in such a way that it can now proceed into the next decade. That transcends all in game politics, the CSM and anything else that people might come up with.



* Eternum bows to the player base, thx CCP and then flips the CSM the finger.


Shocked


What do you goons need nerfed now ? Bear

No troll.
Maelle LuzArdiden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2012-01-05 09:10:58 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

Actually as soon as a lone-wolf type reached the point of having its own clients to vote for him he no longer would be lone-wolf and would represent a guy wih a lot of clients to please. Preferably clients from nullsec. Preferably close to the uber-alliances. Preferably the kind of CSM we got now, who are asisting your company into flipping the bird to hiseccers, soloers, casuals and very specially those who hoped you (eventually) were true about Incarna and instead got four closets and have been waiting for two bloody months and 2,000 messages that you deign yourselves to say anything on WiS.

As far as we know, WiS was not on the table this december. That's nice. But now grow some balls and tell us you no longer want to think on WiS and so we can carry on and do whatever we see suit to do with whatever gameplay you will give to nullsecers, griefers, gankers and the rest of your First Class customers.


All cool and stuff, but you realize that "flipping the finger to soloers" is not actually true or real outside your imagination?
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#63 - 2012-01-05 09:13:55 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
....

Please exclude me from that statement, I did not participate in the tantrum for I am an enlightened, civilized being. Most of my time (when I was not rolling around laughing at the stupidity unfolding), I was trying to help the irrationals come to terms with their delusions and misinterpretations of communiques.
I did rage, but it was a private affair and happened approximately "18 Months™" prior to Incarna .. when BitterVet™ syndrome kicked my teeth in and I could see Eve and CCPs direction for what it was under the shiny veneer.

The reason why CCP caved so readily has more to do with subs disappearing and that for the first time in ages taking a look at what they were doing as a whole .. the hate mongering and Jita crap likely had zero impact.

PS: You should not be embarrassed about hating Goons, the few redeeming qualities they possess are the proverbial drops in an ocean of crap that is the Goon. Wear it as a badge!
PPS: The community failed .. HARD. It proved that it is every bit an illiterate bunch of lemmings as any other community in the world. Sorry for being the one to break it to you, but take it a look at the sequence of events and show me where/how I am wrong in that assessment.
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-01-05 12:40:17 UTC
Ciar Meara wrote:
I have no issue with the CSM doing what they where supposed do, they did jump on the bandwagon eventually, although it took a little time and prodding from the masses to get them to take that last step.


Well, sometimes we are a bit ahead of the curve. You will recall CSM5 and the infamous public letter (which I'm told got us called "terrorists" by some people at CCP, and was the subject of much criticism during the CSM6 elections).

The problem with being a canary in the coalmines is that you're usually the first to die... Twisted

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#65 - 2012-01-05 12:53:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
The community failed .. HARD. It proved that it is every bit an illiterate bunch of lemmings as any other community in the world. Sorry for being the one to break it to you, but take it a look at the sequence of events and show me where/how I am wrong in that assessment.



As stated, you can only get away with this kind of fabricated stupidity on the internet. I don't really have the time or inclination to give you a play by play. If you were not here to see it, or if you are to dumb/deluded to understand it, then no amount of words will convince you of your in ability to perceive said events.


Maybe you should run for CSM, your condescending tone and delusional state of mind would make you blend in perfectly.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#66 - 2012-01-05 13:01:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Ciar Meara wrote:
I have no issue with the CSM doing what they where supposed do, they did jump on the bandwagon eventually, although it took a little time and prodding from the masses to get them to take that last step.


Well, sometimes we are a bit ahead of the curve. You will recall CSM5 and the infamous public letter (which I'm told got us called "terrorists" by some people at CCP, and was the subject of much criticism during the CSM6 elections).

The problem with being a canary in the coalmines is that you're usually the first to die... Twisted




Trebor Daehdoow, I am thinking of running for CSM.
Here is my planned course of action... can you give me a second opinion?


Step 1. I will join a large alliance since that is a prerequisite
Step 2. I will gain a leadership role in said alliance, or attain popularity through wealth, FC'ing or RMT
Step 3. If I cannot attain a leadership role, I will do my best to convince the leaders of the alliance that I will represent the interests of said leadership.
Step 4. I will ask said alliance (and allies) to vote for me.
Step 5. I will use my easily acquired nullsec wealth (and general influence in game) to have multiple account holders vote for me. I have a few friends already who own several accounts per person.
Step 6. I will use my acquired nullsec wealth to purchase new accounts with Plex, and help others do the same with said wealth. This will amplify the votes in my favor even more. If I have a leadership role (as I plan to) I can use alliance assets numbered in billions and trillions of isk to create even more temporary accounts, thus assuring my CSM seat.


That is the correct way to get voted into the CSM right? Did I miss anything?

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#67 - 2012-01-05 15:18:02 UTC
Maelle LuzArdiden wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

Actually as soon as a lone-wolf type reached the point of having its own clients to vote for him he no longer would be lone-wolf and would represent a guy wih a lot of clients to please. Preferably clients from nullsec. Preferably close to the uber-alliances. Preferably the kind of CSM we got now, who are asisting your company into flipping the bird to hiseccers, soloers, casuals and very specially those who hoped you (eventually) were true about Incarna and instead got four closets and have been waiting for two bloody months and 2,000 messages that you deign yourselves to say anything on WiS.

As far as we know, WiS was not on the table this december. That's nice. But now grow some balls and tell us you no longer want to think on WiS and so we can carry on and do whatever we see suit to do with whatever gameplay you will give to nullsecers, griefers, gankers and the rest of your First Class customers.


All cool and stuff, but you realize that "flipping the finger to soloers" is not actually true or real outside your imagination?



It's a rude approach to CCP's factual policy of making life easier to uberalliances and fuk/ignore everybody else.

I've had fun in this game for three years, but when has come the time to look for something else to do... there was nothing left to do.

Because, OMG, I dare to play solo on a casual schedule (got a life, nonetheless) and sincerely don't see any fun in losing my hardly earned stuff to whatever flock of idiots come to bully me.

Yes, i should be playing X3 instead of EVE.

And I AM playing X3, again.

Just I miss having a 3D avatar, which has been the ultimate reason why I leave the game now and not with the Incarna disaster. (Not quiting completely, as this account, silly me, was pre-paid until April... so i'll keep bouncing around these forums for a while).
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#68 - 2012-01-05 15:57:28 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Professor Alphane wrote:
Effective in what way, have you any evidence to support this, how would crucible be any difffrent without the CSM?

There is the very real probability that Eve wouldn't have survived to produce the Crucible expansion without the intervention of the current CSM.

I think you actually believe that sadly enough

CCP was happy to basically ignore the entire playerbase until people started canceling their accounts in great numbers and even then they didn't really grasp what the problems were until the emergency CSM meeting they had over the summer.

Oh yes CCP are blind and deaf and needed someone to tell them again what everybody was screaming about. 'The emergenct summit turned things around', Well I ask you ever had the wool pulled over your eyes, it was PR stunt by CCP in a desperate attempt to communicate to the playerbase they are interested in our concerns, no more no less, just a propaganda excercise

But for some more concrete examples you can thank the CSM for jump bridges not being foolishly removed from the game, supercaps finally getting a balance pass, an actual plan to fix some of the glaring problems with the Dominion sov system, CCP backing away from selling gold ships and ammo through RMT and a bunch of smaller "quality of life" issues that they have been championing since their term started.

Or CCP could have polled the playerbase as an entriety and done the same thing, this doesn't justify the CSM or prove it's effectivness

I get that some people don't like Goons and hate to see us succeed but keep in mind that there are only two Goons on the CSM and when I say that CSM6 has been the most effective CSM in history I mean all of them--not just Mittens and Vile Rat.

Get over yourself nothing to do with goons, it's to do with establishing a political structure when one wasn't needed and infact having one is detremental to the impartiality and overall effectiveness of the concept of a small focus group.



As I say nothing to do with Goons, can't remeber the context but I remeber someone mentioning EVE Uni using block voting to get something done or get someone elected, thats just as corrupt IMO as anyhting you seem to think I'm accusing the Goons of doing.

And while my opinion of goons ain't changed becaue 'thats how you roll' , this isn't about that it's about stupidity on CCP's part, lack of forethought, and basic laziness (oh lets create a focus group rather than going through the effort of actually finding out who thinks what and in what proportions across the entirety of the population of New Eden).

'CSM 6 is the best CSM ever' doesn't justify CSM's exsistance or make CCP's mistakes in this any less IMO.

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Kelsi Corynn
Doomheim
#69 - 2012-01-05 17:21:59 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
I have 2 accounts and so I get 2 votes. Do you know how many people in nullsec have more then just 2? People were activating dead accounts, and buying accounts with plexes just to game the CSM vote. Why do you think that there are Pandemic and Goon CSM's? Coincidence? Nope. Wealthy alliances that are not only large, they also have many multiple account owners (like 4,5,6 accounts and more)

Guess what that means for the ordinary, run of the mill single account holder who only gets 1 vote?



20 people with 2 accounts can submit 40 votes
That means that twice as many single account holders have to vote for it to break even (let alone have their choice win the CSM chair)


Ahh okay, I understand your point.
However, what alternative to 1 account = 1 vote would CCP be able to reliably enforce? Isn't having multiple account holders getting that many votes just an extension of the degree to which they're invested in the game with their time or money?
Also, block voting happens in every democracy, as does the leveraging of wealth or affiliations to command votes. Keep in mind that the voter turnout for CSM 6 was a record high, at only 14.25% of active subscriptions. While resubbing shenanigans might account for some votes, it is very minor compared to what more effective campaigning might yield.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#70 - 2012-01-05 17:36:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Kelsi Corynn wrote:
While resubbing shenanigans might account for some votes, it is very minor compared to what more effective campaigning might yield.



Because of said Shenanigans, and because of the general low opinion of the CSM universal-wide, the other 86% of people don't feel like voting will matter. So they do not. 14% is not allot, and those 14% generate a small group of elected CSM's that gamed the system to a significant degree. Those people are supposed to represent 100% of people and that is just stupid.


CCP needs to stop being lazy and gather the information they need internally, and they need to do so for the bettering of their business. Better management of the changes they were trying to add into EVE Online, and better foresight through gathering the correct information from the general player base, would have yielded positive results for their investments into Incarna (and WOD)



The CSM is a marketing gimmick and that is fine, but we need something more tangible in the grand scheme of things. Let them fly shlubs to Iceland if they want to, so long as they have something more legitimate behind the scenes collecting real information and gathering hard data. Every company does this, so I don't understand why here in EVE it is "revolutionary and absurd rocket science"





I mean ****... Dev's can randomly PM people in game and ask them a few questions. What they like and dislike, and what they wish that they could add into the game. 99% of people would respond to an actual GM Happily.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2012-01-05 17:54:30 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Thanks to CSM6 the most effective CSM ever.


Most effective? Completely and totally false. If CSM6 were the most effective then the Summer of Rage wouldn't have happened. CSM6 was simply the most public, which is still to their credit.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2012-01-05 22:53:04 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Because of said Shenanigans, and because of the general low opinion of the CSM universal-wide, the other 86% of people don't feel like voting will matter. So they do not. 14% is not allot, and those 14% generate a small group of elected CSM's that gamed the system to a significant degree. Those people are supposed to represent 100% of people and that is just stupid.

Then it sounds like you should be putting your energy towards getting more people to vote. That would be much more productive than making passive aggressive threads about the CSM because you hate Goons.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2012-01-05 22:55:27 UTC
Taedrin wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Thanks to CSM6 the most effective CSM ever.


Most effective? Completely and totally false. If CSM6 were the most effective then the Summer of Rage wouldn't have happened. CSM6 was simply the most public, which is still to their credit.

If you go back and read the CSM minutes you'll see clearly that CCP caused the summer of rage by ignoring CSM6.

The CSM has zero power to change anything that CCP does. They don't have the ability to say "You're being dumb so you need to stop" and have CCP do it. The reason they have been so effective is because they have used what power they *do* have (namely the ability to publicly shame CCP into action) to help CCP right the wrongs and fix the game.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#74 - 2012-01-05 23:11:08 UTC
So let me get this straight CCP ignored CSM6 exactly like they ignored the community as a whole.

Then CSM6's kicked up a fuss, exactly like the community as a whole.

CCP relented and it's all because of CSM6's great work. Roll

Blinkered view point much.

I'd sit down if I where you . If you 'spin' anymore you'll get dizzy and fall over Lol

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
FadeIN Fr0St
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2012-01-06 00:02:29 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
CCP Navigator wrote:
As someone who has interacted with the CSM on many occasions I am not sure that the sentiments in the OP are just. Every CSM I have worked with have been productive, helpful and have worked to ensure that player concerns are addressed and fixed. Calling them a fruitless band of individuals is more than unfair.

Still, elections will be coming up in the next few weeks for the CSM so perhaps you can shift that focus, run a strong campaign and be a really good CSM member. Naturally, it is always easy to throw stones at a glass house. Try coming into the house instead and actually affect change.



Try getting them to represent themselves the same way when interacting with the general player base. Seriously, it would go a looooong way in terms of restoring the CSM name in the eyes of everyone else. While in the CSM chair, they are representing your company to the rest of the world.



Time to be quiet now. You are pooping some nasty crap out of that mouth.

"All hail Wang ... the little fella in Command. When 'trouble' starts to spread, I'm sure he will rise to the occasion."

Azahni Vah'nos (Best reply ever)
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#76 - 2012-01-06 00:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
P42ALPHA wrote:
Try getting them to represent themselves the same way when interacting with the general player base. Seriously, it would go a looooong way in terms of restoring the CSM name in the eyes of everyone else. While in the CSM chair, they are representing your company to the rest of the world.


Time to be quiet now. You are pooping some nasty crap out of that mouth.


Yes... what an absurd concept... You're like daft aren't you?Ugh

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
#77 - 2012-01-06 01:34:49 UTC
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Thank CCP not yet ,they may be listening to those idiots.
Thinking they represent the whole playerbase


Yeah thanking them for not mucking up the game anymore after the REAL userbase (not the forum posting one) decided to speak with their wallets.

This reminds me of the moment when Salvador Dali was hit by a taxi car in Paris and after finding out he was uninjured except for a few bruises, promptly faced the taxi driver and paid him with some bills and thanked him and everyone was confused and he said "I paid him and thanked him for not killing me".

Yep, thats how I see your thanks. Roll

Don't want to sound mean, and I have tantalizingly approved Crucible before in a note of optimism, but when I see back at how Crucible came to happen, it loses a lot of its glow. Yes it's good, no, WAS good, but so far, CCP seems prone still to fall for the same lame ploys of before.

They have a huge road ahead and we need to remind them where they are now and WHY.

All in all, I SOMEWHAT agree with your ... thanks to them, just a bit.

Inner Sayings of BrujoLoco: http://eve-files.com/sig/brujoloco
Hainnz
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2012-01-06 02:41:37 UTC
Why worry about CSM anyway? Players ultimately vote with their wallets. Don't get emotionally invested in this (or any online game). If it's fun, play. If it stops being fun, stop playing it.