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PIE and the 24th Imperial Crusade Threaten The Disciples of Ston
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#121 - 2012-01-05 20:56:26 UTC
I find it odd that this discussion is so full of people saying that PIE has no right to conduct investigations, when it's not so long ago that people were insisting that we investigate allegations of wrongdoing amongst other corporations.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#122 - 2012-01-05 20:59:19 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
I find it odd that this discussion is so full of people saying that PIE has no right to conduct investigations, when it's not so long ago that people were insisting that we investigate allegations of wrongdoing amongst other corporations.


It's more you don't have the right to demand investigations, not that you can't request to conduct them.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#123 - 2012-01-05 21:04:21 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
I find it odd that this discussion is so full of people saying that PIE has no right to conduct investigations, when it's not so long ago that people were insisting that we investigate allegations of wrongdoing amongst other corporations.


Oh, no, investigate away. Just don't demand silence while you are doing it or else it will highlight your status as a fascist.
Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#124 - 2012-01-05 21:06:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Manwe Todako
Dear Mr. Blake,

The Former Slaves who live in our Matriculation Centers were rescued from jet cans. Holders illegally selling slaves to non-Amarrians contract unscrupulous pilots to transport them across borders. When pilots are paid in advance they see no need to risk detection and so dump their cargoes at the border, leaving the people to die a horrific death in space. We rescue these people. Also Amarrian pilots carrying slaves through Amarr space jettison their slaves before crossing into territory where slavery is illegal. We try to rescue them before they die. Often times, the pilots will even jettison the Slavers along with the slaves to eliminate all witnesses to their wicked actions. We rescue them as well. We even rescue the slaver hounds that are left to die.

Edit: O yes, as to risk, I am an escaped former slave. Our Elder Council thought it best that I not visit the Goldcore Tavern for now, but Ston has been there before so they were comfortable with that.

SANKOFA
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#125 - 2012-01-05 21:20:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
Manwe Todako wrote:
Dear Mr. Blake,

The Former Slaves who live in our Matriculation Centers were rescued from jet cans. Holders illegally selling slaves to non-Amarrians contract unscrupulous pilots to transport them across borders. When pilots are paid in advance they see no need to risk detection and so dump their cargoes at the border, leaving the people to die a horrific death in space. We rescue these people. Also Amarrian pilots carrying slaves through Amarr space jettison their slaves before crossing into territory where slavery is illegal. We try to rescue them before they die. Often times, the pilots will even jettison the Slavers along with the slaves to eliminate all witnesses to their wicked actions. We rescue them as well. We even rescue the slaver hounds that are left to die.


I'm interested in the specific cases of those slaves belonging to PIE officers. Please explain exactly how they came to be in your possession.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2012-01-05 21:20:44 UTC
Manwe Todako wrote:
Dear Mr. Blake,

The Former Slaves who live in our Matriculation Centers were rescued from jet cans. Holders illegally selling slaves to non-Amarrians contract unscrupulous pilots to transport them across borders. When pilots are paid in advance they see no need to risk detection and so dump their cargoes at the border, leaving the people to die a horrific death in space. We rescue these people. Also Amarrian pilots carrying slaves through Amarr space jettison their slaves before crossing into territory where slavery is illegal. We try to rescue them before they die. Often times, the pilots will even jettison the Slavers along with the slaves to eliminate all witnesses to their wicked actions. We rescue them as well. We even rescue the slaver hounds that are left to die.

Edit: O yes, as to risk, I am an escaped former slave. Our Elder Council thought it best that I not visit the Goldcore Tavern for now, but Ston has been there before so they were comfortable with that.


Honorable work... if true. I have nothing but your word that it is. Considering that you have rejected my investigation, I must judge your organization based on the evidence I have at hand. Expect my report soon.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#127 - 2012-01-05 21:32:45 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:

Honorable work... if true. I have nothing but your word that it is. Considering that you have rejected my investigation, I must judge your organization based on the evidence I have at hand. Expect my report soon.


Your investigation wasn't 'rejected'; in fact, there have been several communications made between PIE and the Disciples, the majority of which have attempted to compromise and still allow your ill-advised investigation to go forward.

It's becoming increasingly apparent to me, Captain Goldcore, that you had no intention of performing a truly impartial investigation in the first place. From what I've observed so far, it looks more like a sly attempt to swoop in and find as many slaves as possible, then conveniently recover them when you oh so conveniently discover that the Disciples were acting against the interests of the Empire.

Captain, if you're going to try and sidestep another nation's sovereignty, try not to be so transparent about your intentions.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#128 - 2012-01-05 21:52:29 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Captain, if you're going to try and sidestep another nation's sovereignty, try not to be so transparent about your intentions.


Yeah, the last thing the Empire needs is this vigilantism. If you feel that laws are being broken, tell the auth... oh, I'm sorry, I forgot this isn't the Federation. Never mind, carry on with your callous bullying of your peers and run over their own interpretation of good conduct with your own, much more powerful brand. This is exactly why the Empire has remained so dismally unethical in not only its government practice but in the habits of its citizens.

But, that's right, PIE joined with 24IC, now they have badges.
Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2012-01-05 21:59:47 UTC
Manwe Todako wrote:
NO, WE WILL NOT SUBMIT TO INSPECTION ON YOUR TERMS, PIE and 24th IC.


I'm sure this was a new form of negotiation that I just haven't heard about then.

If you read my second letter to Manwe I had wanted to negotiate conditions with him, which as been posted in this forum. In addition when I gave my last list of specifically what my investigation would entail, my expectations, and full disclosure of planned activities I had noted that I had room for negotiation. Astrid Stjerna, think before speaking.

If I had not intended on an fair investigation I would have declared them hostile at their first act of defiance by posting this here in this thread. However, not only did I forgive that slight, but many other slights that came after. I did my very best to give the deciples of Ston a chance to prove their innocence... At every turn they have defied me, apparently for the simple sake of defying me.

It is impossible to deny that D-Ston have many reasons to be investigated. No one has made a point of avoiding any of the points I have made on this end.

What the plans are for captured D-ston personal will be made clear with my full report on the D-ston which will be out later today.

Thgil Goldcore
Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#130 - 2012-01-05 22:08:58 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
Manwe Todako wrote:
NO, WE WILL NOT SUBMIT TO INSPECTION ON YOUR TERMS, PIE and 24th IC.


I'm sure this was a new form of negotiation that I just haven't heard about then.


They offered you alternative terms to which you could conduct your investigation.

Remember that whole thing about diplomacy I was telling you about, well this is what we call the negotiation stage.

You have to give a little in order to get.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#131 - 2012-01-05 22:15:22 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
At every turn they have defied me, apparently for the simple sake of defying me.


They have defied you because of the beligerent nature of your first message. You 'demanded' that they open themselves to an investigation -- not 'requested', demanded. That first communication set the tone for this entire issue.

Captain Goldcore, I'm going to be my usual blunt self: you came onto the scene, made a demand that was extremely questionable in legality, and then expected everyone to bow down to your 'authority' without question. That may be the way the Empire does things, but the Republic takes a dim view of a foreign nation coming into our space and threatening our citizens.

Now, if you want to go through the proper channels, I'm certain our diplomatic office will be happy to speak with you. I can't guarantee that they'll agree to allow an inspection, or that they have the authority to allow the inspection of a non-government organization, but I can guarantee that it'll be a lot more productive than all of this pointless posturing.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#132 - 2012-01-05 22:34:06 UTC
This was just recently received from DC Goldcore:

Re: Meeting
From: Thgil Goldcore
Sent: 2012.01.05 21:41
To: Manwe Todako,

Mr. Todako;

You do understand how jumpclones work right? such a meeting poses absolutly no risk since clone death has absolutly no negitive rammification twards your infomorph. What purpouse would there be to create a clone to simply destroy it. Such leaps of faulty logic are plauging your judgement in this matter to a degree that enters the territory of delusion. 

You have already made your responce clear and I am assembling my report currently and, since you decided to make this a public matter, you will see it on the IGS shortly. This could have ended quickly and quietly, but now I am forced to seek information forcefully.  While I have no doubt that this priavte communication will be made public, consider that I have made my demands crystal clear and even left room for negotiation. YOU, on the otherhand, have made no attempt at so negotiation at any level, or even direct communication with me at any level. Your actions speak clearly of a man with a deep vendetta willing to throw bodies and his own principles into a fire to fuel his own hate. 

Thgil Goldcore
Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade.

I mean no disrespect, nor do I mean to talk down to anyone, but I am very familiar with clone technology and perhaps because capsuleer school is a more recent memory for me, I remember some things that others have forgotten. Let me quote the manual that we were all taught from:

Despite the advances made in cloning tech, in almost every single environment retransplantation of the mind at time of death is still risky ground. The crucial element in the process relies on a brain-scan snapshot being taken at the precise time of death and transmitted to the waiting clone, and so the transneural burning scanner required to do so needs to be mounted somewhere close to the person at all times. Since the snapshot itself causes massive physical damage to the gray matter, there can be no margin of error; it needs to be done at the exact time of death. In planetary vehicles, the cloning companies have experimented with mounting the transneural scanner in a variety of locations, but the almost limitless potentiality of planet-bound environments has proved time and again that it just isn’t safe – snapshots either go off due to false stimuli, leaving healthy clients in a vegetative state, or fail to go off due to circumstances unforeseen by the safeguard mechanism, leaving clients dead with no chance of retransplantation.

In the capsule, however, things are different. All the equipment needs to do is detect a breach in the pod, because – as every cadet has hammered into his head from the moment he starts training – pod breach, without exception, spells doom for the person inside. Therefore, the instant the egg begins to crack, two things happen: the wire-cap on the pilot’s head injects an instantly lethal nanotoxin into his bloodstream and the scanner sends its piercing light into his skull. Scarce seconds later, he begins the muddy climb towards consciousness in a new body, light years away.

I know of no station or planetary taverns that have individual transneural scanners for every patron. Without that scanner, that is only in your pod, your infomorph goes to the spirits when your clone dies. Yes, I completely understand jump clone technology and that is precisely why the Elder Council considered it too great a risk. Let this be a wake up call for all capsuleer pilots who assume that they are safe on stations, etc. When you are out of pod, you are as good as mortal.

SANKOFA
Conventia Underking
Underking Family
Khimi Harar
#133 - 2012-01-05 22:38:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Conventia Underking
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
Manwe Todako wrote:
NO, WE WILL NOT SUBMIT TO INSPECTION ON YOUR TERMS, PIE and 24th IC.


I'm sure this was a new form of negotiation that I just haven't heard about then.

If you read my second letter to Manwe I had wanted to negotiate conditions with him, which as been posted in this forum. In addition when I gave my last list of specifically what my investigation would entail, my expectations, and full disclosure of planned activities I had noted that I had room for negotiation. Astrid Stjerna, think before speaking.

If I had not intended on an fair investigation I would have declared them hostile at their first act of defiance by posting this here in this thread. However, not only did I forgive that slight, but many other slights that came after. I did my very best to give the deciples of Ston a chance to prove their innocence... At every turn they have defied me, apparently for the simple sake of defying me.

It is impossible to deny that D-Ston have many reasons to be investigated. No one has made a point of avoiding any of the points I have made on this end.

What the plans are for captured D-ston personal will be made clear with my full report on the D-ston which will be out later today.

Thgil Goldcore
Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade


Divine Commodore, given that the Disciples of Ston requested accompaniment from Electus Matari and Teraa Matar during your visit and both organizations have accepted and I am the representative of Teraa Matar, why is it that I have not received a communique from you requesting an appropriate time along with the other involved parties? I look forward to your private commincation about a time that is, hopefully, appropriate for all involved.

For God; Salvation is Imperative, but not at the cost of our Humanity!

The Vitoc Problem - Conventia Underking
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#134 - 2012-01-05 22:39:06 UTC
I admit, I am stunned. Someone made unreasonable demands which they expected someone else to meet, and that individual refused to meet them, so that person continues to make demands.

What?

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#135 - 2012-01-05 22:40:09 UTC
Wait a second...

Manwe Todako wrote:
*Quoting Thgil Goldcore* YOU, on the otherhand, have made no attempt at so negotiation at any level



Erm...


Manwe Todako wrote:
We the Council of Elders of the Matriculation Centers of the Disciples of Ston cordially invite one representative of the 24th IC namely, Thgil Goldcore, to be accompanied by one representative of the Electus Matari and one representative of the Teraa Matar to a tour our Matriculation centers to be guided by the chief Elder Gladius and Sister Elder Verin. All parties will be unarmed during the tour. These conditions are established to maintain a check and balance and to provide for the safety of those in our centers. If these conditions are followed, we are glad to submit to an inspection by Ms. Thgil Goldcore.



Pretty sure that's negotiation.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#136 - 2012-01-05 22:45:18 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:


Captain, if you're going to try and sidestep another nation's sovereignty, try not to be so transparent about your intentions.


The capsuleers of the DoS have declared themselves a sovereign nation?! A Muck-Raker would say, "Sen-Sational!"

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#137 - 2012-01-05 22:47:49 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Pretty sure that's negotiation.


I know you're trying to help, but you see... The Commodore, she has special needs and sometimes it can take a few tries.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#138 - 2012-01-05 22:50:21 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
The capsuleers of the DoS have declared themselves a sovereign nation?! A Muck-Raker would say, "Sen-Sational!"
Let me guess - the "help" usually takes care of reading comprehension, too?
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#139 - 2012-01-05 22:51:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Aphoxema G wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Pretty sure that's negotiation.


I know you're trying to help, but you see... The Commodore, she has special needs and sometimes it can take a few tries.


I've noticed, that's why I'm trying it in several different ways. I wouldn't say a lack of understanding diplomacy necessarily means she's special however, not everyone gets it the first time.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#140 - 2012-01-05 22:54:46 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Silas Vitalia wrote:
The capsuleers of the DoS have declared themselves a sovereign nation?! A Muck-Raker would say, "Sen-Sational!"
Let me guess - the "help" usually takes care of reading comprehension, too?


Clarify?

Sabik now, Sabik forever