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[Focus Group] Tactical Destroyers

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#121 - 2015-10-15 19:53:31 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.

So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.

Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway


i agree with most of that besides the 'im sure everything will turn out OK' part considering how many times they have released things that get multiple tweaks or none at all and still remain horribly broken, whilst CCP pretend too have learn't from their mistakes.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#122 - 2015-10-15 20:29:14 UTC
Thats a good point, actually you have to wonder if CCP really care about balance, or if the entire idea is just to keep things going up and down like a roller coaster, in order to keep the game interesting. The buffs and nerfs in this game are insane if you look at the progression. I mean, battlecruisers just got nerfed not even that long ago, I cant remember it might have been like two or three years, not sure though, and cruisers got buffed and now battlecruisers have been buffed again, in the meantime CCP managed to find time to release an entire new class of ship almost without reference to the entire rest of the game that became OP, got nerfed, and still need a focus group because they are still problematic. Havent even mentioned the plenty of other broken ships, either overpowered or underpowered, that have been nerfed or buffed in recentish times, or that have simply been introduced to purposely break the game (why else did they create the Orthrus?)

Im not hating. I love this game, even as it is, it is possibly the most extraordinary virtual world in existence. But, I cannot hide what I have observed. I probably just cant fathom all of the complexity and intricacy of balance in a game such as this. But I know for sure that T3Ds were just a dumb idea. Like, period.

I should also say though, I dont think nerfing T3D resists is a very good idea. It makes sense that they should be able to have at least as good resists as T2, when in defense mode. Anything less than T2 resists in defense mode would just not compute, for real.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#123 - 2015-10-15 20:50:46 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Thats a good point, actually you have to wonder if CCP really care about balance, or if the entire idea is just to keep things going up and down like a roller coaster, in order to keep the game interesting. The buffs and nerfs in this game are insane if you look at the progression. I mean, battlecruisers just got nerfed not even that long ago, I cant remember it might have been like two or three years, not sure though, and cruisers got buffed and now battlecruisers have been buffed again, in the meantime CCP managed to find time to release an entire new class of ship almost without reference to the entire rest of the game that became OP, got nerfed, and still need a focus group because they are still problematic. Havent even mentioned the plenty of other broken ships, either overpowered or underpowered, that have been nerfed or buffed in recentish times, or that have simply been introduced to purposely break the game (why else did they create the Orthrus?)

Im not hating. I love this game, even as it is, it is possibly the most extraordinary virtual world in existence. But, I cannot hide what I have observed. I probably just cant fathom all of the complexity and intricacy of balance in a game such as this. But I know for sure that T3Ds were just a dumb idea. Like, period.

I should also say though, I dont think nerfing T3D resists is a very good idea. It makes sense that they should be able to have at least as good resists as T2, when in defense mode. Anything less than T2 resists in defense mode would just not compute, for real.


im still amazed that T3 cruisers haven't been fixed, THE most broken things in the game got a minor tweak and thats it, i also recall them saying they wouldn't add new T3 stuff until they fixed those first, but on the resists i think clarity is important aswell as clear distinctions in the tech levels, T2 resists should be unique too T2 as a distinct advantage too them alone T3's should be clearly about versatility being able too do different things at a good level rather than multiple things at an OP level.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2015-10-15 22:48:56 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Thats a good point, actually you have to wonder if CCP really care about balance, or if the entire idea is just to keep things going up and down like a roller coaster, in order to keep the game interesting. The buffs and nerfs in this game are insane if you look at the progression. I mean, battlecruisers just got nerfed not even that long ago, I cant remember it might have been like two or three years, not sure though, and cruisers got buffed and now battlecruisers have been buffed again, in the meantime CCP managed to find time to release an entire new class of ship almost without reference to the entire rest of the game that became OP, got nerfed, and still need a focus group because they are still problematic. Havent even mentioned the plenty of other broken ships, either overpowered or underpowered, that have been nerfed or buffed in recentish times, or that have simply been introduced to purposely break the game (why else did they create the Orthrus?)

Im not hating. I love this game, even as it is, it is possibly the most extraordinary virtual world in existence. But, I cannot hide what I have observed. I probably just cant fathom all of the complexity and intricacy of balance in a game such as this. But I know for sure that T3Ds were just a dumb idea. Like, period.

I should also say though, I dont think nerfing T3D resists is a very good idea. It makes sense that they should be able to have at least as good resists as T2, when in defense mode. Anything less than T2 resists in defense mode would just not compute, for real.


im still amazed that T3 cruisers haven't been fixed, THE most broken things in the game got a minor tweak and thats it, i also recall them saying they wouldn't add new T3 stuff until they fixed those first, but on the resists i think clarity is important aswell as clear distinctions in the tech levels, T2 resists should be unique too T2 as a distinct advantage too them alone T3's should be clearly about versatility being able too do different things at a good level rather than multiple things at an OP level.



How are t3s broken in any form? If anything they are fairly weak at the moment.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#125 - 2015-10-15 23:05:36 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Thats a good point, actually you have to wonder if CCP really care about balance, or if the entire idea is just to keep things going up and down like a roller coaster, in order to keep the game interesting. The buffs and nerfs in this game are insane if you look at the progression. I mean, battlecruisers just got nerfed not even that long ago, I cant remember it might have been like two or three years, not sure though, and cruisers got buffed and now battlecruisers have been buffed again, in the meantime CCP managed to find time to release an entire new class of ship almost without reference to the entire rest of the game that became OP, got nerfed, and still need a focus group because they are still problematic. Havent even mentioned the plenty of other broken ships, either overpowered or underpowered, that have been nerfed or buffed in recentish times, or that have simply been introduced to purposely break the game (why else did they create the Orthrus?)

Im not hating. I love this game, even as it is, it is possibly the most extraordinary virtual world in existence. But, I cannot hide what I have observed. I probably just cant fathom all of the complexity and intricacy of balance in a game such as this. But I know for sure that T3Ds were just a dumb idea. Like, period.

I should also say though, I dont think nerfing T3D resists is a very good idea. It makes sense that they should be able to have at least as good resists as T2, when in defense mode. Anything less than T2 resists in defense mode would just not compute, for real.


im still amazed that T3 cruisers haven't been fixed, THE most broken things in the game got a minor tweak and thats it, i also recall them saying they wouldn't add new T3 stuff until they fixed those first, but on the resists i think clarity is important aswell as clear distinctions in the tech levels, T2 resists should be unique too T2 as a distinct advantage too them alone T3's should be clearly about versatility being able too do different things at a good level rather than multiple things at an OP level.



How are t3s broken in any form? If anything they are fairly weak at the moment.


ShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestion WTF!! are you on??

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2015-10-16 00:02:14 UTC
I think he meant T3 cruisers, maybe.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#127 - 2015-10-16 00:09:12 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Thats a good point, actually you have to wonder if CCP really care about balance, or if the entire idea is just to keep things going up and down like a roller coaster, in order to keep the game interesting. The buffs and nerfs in this game are insane if you look at the progression. I mean, battlecruisers just got nerfed not even that long ago, I cant remember it might have been like two or three years, not sure though, and cruisers got buffed and now battlecruisers have been buffed again, in the meantime CCP managed to find time to release an entire new class of ship almost without reference to the entire rest of the game that became OP, got nerfed, and still need a focus group because they are still problematic. Havent even mentioned the plenty of other broken ships, either overpowered or underpowered, that have been nerfed or buffed in recentish times, or that have simply been introduced to purposely break the game (why else did they create the Orthrus?)

Im not hating. I love this game, even as it is, it is possibly the most extraordinary virtual world in existence. But, I cannot hide what I have observed. I probably just cant fathom all of the complexity and intricacy of balance in a game such as this. But I know for sure that T3Ds were just a dumb idea. Like, period.

I should also say though, I dont think nerfing T3D resists is a very good idea. It makes sense that they should be able to have at least as good resists as T2, when in defense mode. Anything less than T2 resists in defense mode would just not compute, for real.


im still amazed that T3 cruisers haven't been fixed, THE most broken things in the game got a minor tweak and thats it, i also recall them saying they wouldn't add new T3 stuff until they fixed those first, but on the resists i think clarity is important aswell as clear distinctions in the tech levels, T2 resists should be unique too T2 as a distinct advantage too them alone T3's should be clearly about versatility being able too do different things at a good level rather than multiple things at an OP level.



How are t3s broken in any form? If anything they are fairly weak at the moment.


ShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestion WTF!! are you on??



Eve would've died a loooong time ago if someone like you was on the development staff. All the posts you spout is full of absurdity. Hopefully Fozzie is wise enough to just flat out omit any rubbish you post.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2015-10-16 16:28:15 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Thats a good point, actually you have to wonder if CCP really care about balance, or if the entire idea is just to keep things going up and down like a roller coaster, in order to keep the game interesting. The buffs and nerfs in this game are insane if you look at the progression. I mean, battlecruisers just got nerfed not even that long ago, I cant remember it might have been like two or three years, not sure though, and cruisers got buffed and now battlecruisers have been buffed again, in the meantime CCP managed to find time to release an entire new class of ship almost without reference to the entire rest of the game that became OP, got nerfed, and still need a focus group because they are still problematic. Havent even mentioned the plenty of other broken ships, either overpowered or underpowered, that have been nerfed or buffed in recentish times, or that have simply been introduced to purposely break the game (why else did they create the Orthrus?)

Im not hating. I love this game, even as it is, it is possibly the most extraordinary virtual world in existence. But, I cannot hide what I have observed. I probably just cant fathom all of the complexity and intricacy of balance in a game such as this. But I know for sure that T3Ds were just a dumb idea. Like, period.

I should also say though, I dont think nerfing T3D resists is a very good idea. It makes sense that they should be able to have at least as good resists as T2, when in defense mode. Anything less than T2 resists in defense mode would just not compute, for real.


im still amazed that T3 cruisers haven't been fixed, THE most broken things in the game got a minor tweak and thats it, i also recall them saying they wouldn't add new T3 stuff until they fixed those first, but on the resists i think clarity is important aswell as clear distinctions in the tech levels, T2 resists should be unique too T2 as a distinct advantage too them alone T3's should be clearly about versatility being able too do different things at a good level rather than multiple things at an OP level.



How are t3s broken in any form? If anything they are fairly weak at the moment.


ShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestion WTF!! are you on??


t3 cruisers are fairly weak right now
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#129 - 2015-10-16 16:49:29 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Thats a good point, actually you have to wonder if CCP really care about balance, or if the entire idea is just to keep things going up and down like a roller coaster, in order to keep the game interesting. The buffs and nerfs in this game are insane if you look at the progression. I mean, battlecruisers just got nerfed not even that long ago, I cant remember it might have been like two or three years, not sure though, and cruisers got buffed and now battlecruisers have been buffed again, in the meantime CCP managed to find time to release an entire new class of ship almost without reference to the entire rest of the game that became OP, got nerfed, and still need a focus group because they are still problematic. Havent even mentioned the plenty of other broken ships, either overpowered or underpowered, that have been nerfed or buffed in recentish times, or that have simply been introduced to purposely break the game (why else did they create the Orthrus?)

Im not hating. I love this game, even as it is, it is possibly the most extraordinary virtual world in existence. But, I cannot hide what I have observed. I probably just cant fathom all of the complexity and intricacy of balance in a game such as this. But I know for sure that T3Ds were just a dumb idea. Like, period.

I should also say though, I dont think nerfing T3D resists is a very good idea. It makes sense that they should be able to have at least as good resists as T2, when in defense mode. Anything less than T2 resists in defense mode would just not compute, for real.


im still amazed that T3 cruisers haven't been fixed, THE most broken things in the game got a minor tweak and thats it, i also recall them saying they wouldn't add new T3 stuff until they fixed those first, but on the resists i think clarity is important aswell as clear distinctions in the tech levels, T2 resists should be unique too T2 as a distinct advantage too them alone T3's should be clearly about versatility being able too do different things at a good level rather than multiple things at an OP level.



How are t3s broken in any form? If anything they are fairly weak at the moment.


ShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestion WTF!! are you on??


t3 cruisers are fairly weak right now


WOW!!!.. the battleship tank and dps on a cruiser hull is soooooo...... weak..ShockedShockedShockedShockedShocked

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2015-10-16 17:55:21 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Harvey James wrote:


WOW!!!.. the battleship tank and dps on a cruiser hull is soooooo...... weak..ShockedShockedShockedShockedShocked




Yes, given the price. And those fits arent even really good, a tank/blaster proteus is basicely a ******, more expensive cs and in the "real" meta (i.e not only giant blobs) the proteus, which is the only one that really fits that "cruisers that is as good as a bs thing" is totally crap. Any real bs is better and cheaper for that role.


The only place where a cheaper faction cruiser isnt just straight up better (orthrus>tengu, gila>proteus, nomen>legion, and all their recon versions are just way way way better then t3s in non blobs) are really big fleets, and even here they kind of suck, simply because they are really expensive. You can buy 1.5 rattlesnakes for the price of 1 proteus or 1 machariel. And you lose sp if you die in one.


And its not like t3s take a recons spot in big fleets either, if t3s as such were gone you wouldnt get a ton of recons suddenly, as they still would die instantly and be worthless there (which is good, considering how op they are elsewhere)
Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#131 - 2015-10-16 21:01:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Leonardo Adami
Ares Desideratus wrote:
The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.

So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.

Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway


It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad.

Edit to fix typos
Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#132 - 2015-10-16 21:04:55 UTC
Also y'all stop derailing the thread it's focus is t3d's, you want to talk about cruisers and such there are other threads for that.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#133 - 2015-10-16 21:38:31 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.

So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.

Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway


It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad.

Edit to fix typos


The fact destroyers are killed fairly frequently by t1 and t2 frigs beg to differ. Ive killed plenty of thrashers in my jag to say youre wrong. Yes destroyers should kill frigs, but they should not obsolete an entire class of frigates.

I could take apart a thrasher/catalyst/coercer etc with an arty jag. Or even a breacher. There is no way for me to kill a svipul, fessor, hecate, jackdaw who has a clue how to fit with an AF or t1 frig. Skill at flying/fitting should determine a fight, not "i need to bring a battlecruiser or neut vexor to break this destroyer's tank".

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#134 - 2015-10-16 21:48:47 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.

So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.

Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway


It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad.

Edit to fix typos


The fact destroyers are killed fairly frequently by t1 and t2 frigs beg to differ. Ive killed plenty of thrashers in my jag to say youre wrong. Yes destroyers should kill frigs, but they should not obsolete an entire class of frigates.

I could take apart a thrasher/catalyst/coercer etc with an arty jag. Or even a breacher. There is no way for me to kill a svipul, fessor, hecate, jackdaw who has a clue how to fit with an AF or t1 frig. Skill at flying/fitting should determine a fight, not "i need to bring a battlecruiser or neut vexor to break this destroyer's tank".


If your killing destroyers in frigs that's a pilot problem not ship problem, they're different.
Arla Sarain
#135 - 2015-10-16 22:51:46 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.

So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.

Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway


It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad.

Edit to fix typos

The point is not that frigs are dying when going against T3Ds. There is no reason to fly AFs over T3Ds and in some cases no reason to fly interceptors outside of their anti-bubble trait because that's how tanky and fast T3Ds are.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#136 - 2015-10-17 03:30:50 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.

So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.

Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway


It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad.

Edit to fix typos


The fact destroyers are killed fairly frequently by t1 and t2 frigs beg to differ. Ive killed plenty of thrashers in my jag to say youre wrong. Yes destroyers should kill frigs, but they should not obsolete an entire class of frigates.

I could take apart a thrasher/catalyst/coercer etc with an arty jag. Or even a breacher. There is no way for me to kill a svipul, fessor, hecate, jackdaw who has a clue how to fit with an AF or t1 frig. Skill at flying/fitting should determine a fight, not "i need to bring a battlecruiser or neut vexor to break this destroyer's tank".


If your killing destroyers in frigs that's a pilot problem not ship problem, they're different.


No, its balance.

Autocannons don't project worth a damn on a thrasher out at the edge of scram range. So I can use arty jag to project more dps at edge of scram range than him. Arty thrasher, you can normally get under their guns and kill them that way, assuming you can dodge the first volley.

So it just depends on how you're fit, and the skill of the pilot. T3D however do not have any limitation. You can have cruiser levels of tank, projection, speed and dps. Even if i scram kited an a/c svipul, he still has so much tank, his pitiful barrage a/c dps might break me before i break him. An arty svipul is faster than an arty jag/wolf and projects better with an actual tank.

There is 0 reason to use a jaguar or wolf over a svipul. That is the main issue, not just that a destroyer is killing frigs.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Feyrin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#137 - 2015-10-17 09:51:46 UTC
I would argue however that this is an issue with Assault Frigates not having a defined role other than moderately tanky, slow dps frigate. A feel a new role is require for assault frigates rather than trying to nerf T3 destroyers down to a level where AF's are competitive in the same role.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2015-10-17 15:58:51 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.

So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.

Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway


It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad.

Edit to fix typos


The fact destroyers are killed fairly frequently by t1 and t2 frigs beg to differ. Ive killed plenty of thrashers in my jag to say youre wrong. Yes destroyers should kill frigs, but they should not obsolete an entire class of frigates.

I could take apart a thrasher/catalyst/coercer etc with an arty jag. Or even a breacher. There is no way for me to kill a svipul, fessor, hecate, jackdaw who has a clue how to fit with an AF or t1 frig. Skill at flying/fitting should determine a fight, not "i need to bring a battlecruiser or neut vexor to break this destroyer's tank".


If your killing destroyers in frigs that's a pilot problem not ship problem, they're different.


No, its balance.

Autocannons don't project worth a damn on a thrasher out at the edge of scram range. So I can use arty jag to project more dps at edge of scram range than him. Arty thrasher, you can normally get under their guns and kill them that way, assuming you can dodge the first volley.

So it just depends on how you're fit, and the skill of the pilot. T3D however do not have any limitation. You can have cruiser levels of tank, projection, speed and dps. Even if i scram kited an a/c svipul, he still has so much tank, his pitiful barrage a/c dps might break me before i break him. An arty svipul is faster than an arty jag/wolf and projects better with an actual tank.

There is 0 reason to use a jaguar or wolf over a svipul. That is the main issue, not just that a destroyer is killing frigs.



A Thrasher has literally 100% the same range as a jag, both have a 50% optimal bonus.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#139 - 2015-10-17 17:22:07 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:


A Thrasher has literally 100% the same range as a jag, both have a 50% optimal bonus.


I'm not sure why you mention that as a point.. but ok, i'm aware of their bonuses.

The optimal bonus doesn't do anything significant for autocannons, hence the fact you can scram kite an a/c thrasher with an arty jag. As the jaguar is using the bonus properly with artillery and can mitigate 50% of the thrashers dps (assuming the thrasher is smart and using barrage).

I'm responding to him saying that any destroyer fit can kill any frigate, and if a destroyer dies to a frigate, then its the pilots fault. Which is simply not true if the frigate pilot knows what he is doing.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2015-10-17 17:56:16 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:


It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad.

Edit to fix typos

Actually I don't have a problem with destroyers beating frigates. Destroyers should be able to murder frigates generally speaking. But the T3Ds are so much better than frigates in every practical sense that they completely obsolete them, they aren't just better in a straight up fight, they're better in virtually any situation. Aside from aesthetics and personal preferences, there is no reason to fly a Jag, Wolf, or Dramiel when you could fly a Svipul. It outshines them all in practically any role. Same goes for the Confessor overshadowing ships like the Succubus and Retribution. Not only does it have vastly superior tank and gank numbers, but the Confessor is actually faster and more agile than a Retribution, and with a 10mn AB fit, it outshines the Succubus in the Succubus's own role, which is going super fast with an AB. No reason to fly an AB Succubus when you could fly a 10mn AB Confessor, it has better tank, so much more damage, more versatility and range, etc.