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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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Author
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#101 - 2015-10-16 21:05:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Desideratus
The Breacher, Tormentor, Rifter and Slasher buffs are all nice. Tristan nerf is good without hurting it too much.

The Punisher change, is not very good. It's not that bad, but if you think about it, the Punisher now has no way to reliably active tank, at least before it could use a Nos / Rep combo, now if you try to active tank it you are at extreme risk of cap problems, and more of a risk of cap warfare. You could fit a cap booster if you forgo prop / point, but that's bad and shouldn't really be taken into consideration for how the ship is balanced. The best way to fly it now will be as a pure buffer fit, so all you've really done is buff it's role as a bait tank but you've damaged it's legitimate combat ability by nerfing the utility high slot. That utility high slot was the only thing that made it stand out among the combat frigates, the ability to field a nos combined with such a high tank and AB sig tank gave it a decent niche role in heavy tackle which is now gone.

Firetail and Hookbill buffs both look good.

Osprey Navy Issue looks wonderful.

Not sure how much the Worm will suffer from this missing low slot. Losing a nano or a DDA is pretty significant. It should probably be fine though.
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#102 - 2015-10-16 21:07:13 UTC
I'm loving the punisher these days. This is going to make it just that much better. You can make 2 mids work, if you're creative. Ignore the complainers, Fozzie. Punisher changes are spot on.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon

Floyd1 Azizora
Doomheim
#103 - 2015-10-16 21:11:12 UTC
Why cant the punisher follow the amarr progression and become a drone boat instead?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#104 - 2015-10-16 21:15:17 UTC
Floyd1 Azizora wrote:
Why cant the punisher follow the amarr progression and become a drone boat instead?


like we want more droneboats.... also tormentor has some drones anyway

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Doyle Aldurad
Stellar Winds Consortium
#105 - 2015-10-16 21:16:06 UTC
SORRY to be the bearer of ill tidings but this:

[color="YELLOW"]Worm and Gila:
Two of the most dominant ships in their classes, we're going to tone them down a bit by bringing their slot numbers in line with most other drone ships. These represent fairly significant nerfs but we feel the ships remain among the strongest in their classes. Currently we have decided to leave the Rattlesnake alone, partially as it's not as dominant in its class as the smaller ships. However we won't rule out future changes.
Worm: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU
Gila: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU [/color]

But this is garbage in regards to the Gila -- which like EVERY other Pirate cruiser has 15 slots allocated by racial preference.
Yuikko
#106 - 2015-10-16 21:31:39 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Currently we have decided to leave the Rattlesnake alone, partially as it's not as dominant in its class as the smaller ships.


Does this mean I should wait before training the rattle route? its a pretty cool ship for newbies like me but I dont want to focus in it and then have it nerfed like it happened with the drake (focused in it for a long time and got nerfed).
Wendrika Hydreiga
#107 - 2015-10-16 21:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Wendrika Hydreiga
CCP Fozzie what are you doing?! Leave my beautiful Guristas ships alone! Nooooo! Stooooop!

I'm so sad right now that the only thing that would make me feel better would be Guristas SKINS to every Caldari ship. Starting with the Kestrel! And none of that 30 day license stuff please! Thank you CCP Fozzie, you rock!

I hope the guilt of gutting my beloved Guristas ships will make you consider this little thing.
Leisha Miranen
Doomheim
#108 - 2015-10-16 21:39:37 UTC
Mmmm everyone loves these pirate faction ships. Better fix that.

Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#109 - 2015-10-16 21:51:40 UTC
Yuikko wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Currently we have decided to leave the Rattlesnake alone, partially as it's not as dominant in its class as the smaller ships.


Does this mean I should wait before training the rattle route? its a pretty cool ship for newbies like me but I dont want to focus in it and then have it nerfed like it happened with the drake (focused in it for a long time and got nerfed).


There's only one guarantee in this game: eventually, everything gets nerfed. If you like a ship, fly it now while it's worth it and don't look back when it's not. I can't think of any ship skill that only applicable to one single ship. Your training time won't be wasted.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon

Tennebrae Umbrascen
Repercussus
#110 - 2015-10-16 22:49:12 UTC
I'm curious why you went with just drone capacity for the Sacrilege. I've often viewed it as the armor/brawler counterpart to the Cerberus. The Cerb gets range and speed while the Sac gets tank and sig. Both ships have the same level of damage bonus (Caldari kinetic-specific being the only exception) in their 5% to RoF and 5% to damage, but the Cerberus wins out with 6 launchers while the Sacrilege only has 5, which leaves the Sacrilege with pretty bad dps in most situations. Being down a launcher already, it also has the disadvantage of not getting to use many lows for BCUs like the Cerb can. Has this variance been considered, and is it possible we'll see more Sacrilege balancing in future passes?
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#111 - 2015-10-16 22:49:14 UTC
Navy Osprey deserved attention for a long time.

Garmur deserves a different kind of attention.

Worm didn't deserve the attention it got.
NarielSanos
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#112 - 2015-10-16 22:54:58 UTC
This is a huge and unfortunate blow to the Gila's ability. It was a great ship that was easy for beginners to skill into without a long train. I don't see being able to do C3s with it now. I'd have rather had the role bonus nerfed or see something done about the high slots, but a flat loss of the low without any corresponding buff at all is bulls**t. At least give us some tank back to make up for the low.
Aquinas II
PostgreSQL
#113 - 2015-10-16 23:06:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Aquinas II
I’m also not a fan of the Punisher changes. My preference would be to have the Punisher fill the role of the T1 version of the Vengance. The Vengance is a neat ship, and having a stepping-stone into the T2 AF seems like a reasonable path. Also, as others have said, there are plenty of T1 missile ships in the Amarr lineup, it’s almost MORE confusing to not have any T1 frigates representing that path in the Amarr lineup.
Suitonia
The Bastards
#114 - 2015-10-16 23:23:43 UTC
Shp3 wrote:
so about that orthrus...

current dps with 2 BCU: 525
after that: 393,75

cant even fight a caracal in it anymore.. gg ccp
cap was way too bad and the ship was way too squishy already to be OP...
and the Worm & Gila nerf im not even starting about

RIP the last 2 useful Pirate faction cruisers


You might have been flying the Orthrus for far too long, it seems to have affected your calculations.

the Orthrus is going from a 20% per level bonus (5 * 2 = 10) Effective Launchers
to
15% per level bonus (5 * 1.75 = 8.75) Effective Launchers
This is a 12.5% DPS loss for the Orthrus from Missile Launchers.

Using your 525 figure (Which is way lower than what most Orthrus' can achieve)
You would be going from 525 to 459 DPS.

If drones are included in that figure then the nerf is even less than that.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#115 - 2015-10-16 23:26:11 UTC
DAMNIT!!

Right when I go to join in on the GIla bandwagon...

Glad I didn't waist SP on it... Wait...


BTW, what ever happened to the Gila and Rattlesnake having Uber passive shield tank capability?
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#116 - 2015-10-16 23:42:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaju Enki
Worm nerf sucks. What about the Garmur?

The Tears Must Flow

Elisk Skyforge
State War Academy
#117 - 2015-10-16 23:52:33 UTC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=494dUevcqJM

CCP please nerf these people they are OP.
Ben Kilmore
Wildcard.
Boundary Experts
#118 - 2015-10-17 00:14:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ben Kilmore
I am a fan of most of the planned updates, but foresee Orthrus getting nerfed harder later unless more people end up using the missile disrupt module than I expect. Tracking disruptors don't get utilized too commonly currently, and that module affects 3 weapon systems already.

I like the T3 destroyers a lot, but that does put assault frigs in a weird spot in the current meta... not really sure how to fix it thou unless you somehow made assault frigs less able to be affected by rapid lights or something.

I'd like to see Phantasm get a bit of help too.

So far so good on most of the planned updates thou. Needed! :)
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2015-10-17 00:38:41 UTC
Ugh

MINMATAR
The Breacher is a-okay, so a minor change is fine.

What isn't fine are the changes to the Slasher & Rifter. Outside of niche tackle, crappy brawl attempts, & td nonsense, the Rifter & Slasher are pretty **** combat frigates. Trying to push people into using artillery on ships that have anemic damage output is hilariously backwards.
IMO an bonus low slot would be far better spent on the Rifter than that horribly misguided Punisher attempt.
Trying to have a *kiting* Rifter with 280s is a joke as well when the thing doesn't even have a tracking bonus.
Enjoy that 0.08 tracking :lol:

Similarly, the Firetail changes are next to meaningless. There has never been a point where I thought a Firetail needed more tracking. Damage or CPU is what it needs, not some half-ass attempt to get people to LR kite with a ship that doesn't have any range bonus whatsoever. Successful frig kiting setups relied on ewar abuse (TDs), not that extra little bit of tracking.



GALLENTE
Tristan goes a little slower, woo. Gallente continue to have the best frig lineup in the game.
None of it is really broken, so good to leave it alone.



AMARR
This is a joke, right? LETS BOOST THE TORMENTOR SOME MORE, FORGET THAT PUNISHER HERITAGE.
You devs really are taking the ****.

Quote:
We currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor.

Seriously, what? Isn't the whole point of skill progression to prepare players to fly the Tech2 counterparts? Only the drone ships have unbonused launchers. Laser ganking needs to be represented, sure, but it's like you haven't seen the bloody Tormentor doing exactly that. And naturally the Tormentor needed more drones just because Straight

Speaking of the Punisher - WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?
Decreasing the cap usage, sure. Adding a low slot, fine I can get on board.
But REMOVING THE UTILITY HIGH THAT KEEPS THE SHIP REMOTELY COMPETITIVE? Lol

What is that crap? I don't care who you are, but a laser ship with two mids & no tracking bonus whatsoever is awful.
The ship has got awful damage output, awful fitting options, awful damage application, awful speed, and now you are essentially forcing it to a buffer-tank setup unless the pilot ignores any pvp mids whatsoever and fits an injector instead.

The Tormentor is so much better because it's versatile. 3 mids mean a lot, and 2 drones mean even more.
Hell, even the Executioner can be seen as a better ship because it's got 3 mids and it's not a bloody brick.

To top it off the Amarr joke, you add a bigger drone bay to the Sacrilege. Okay, but WHY?
Amarr has their drone ships, and they are both effective EWAR ships with bonuses to drones.

Fix the Zealot, smart guys. It's a free kill for any self-respecting frigate pilot because the damn things can't HIT anything.
Who cares how much HP your Zealot has when the NOmen outperforms it in every other facet.
Bump the Zealots damage bonus, drop a low, add a mid and give at least 15m3 of drone bandwidth to the thing.



CALDARI
The fixed kinetic bonus is archaic, so the rocket damage changes for the Hookbill are welcome.

The NOsprey changes aren't welcome without RLML changes. This effectively makes the NOsprey another cheap Orthrus, outperforming both the NCaralol & ScyFI in that field. Before implants/rigs/drones, but overloaded, 3x BCU setups will reach just shy of 500dps w/ Rage. Because everyone really wanted another high damage, 2.5k/s missile spewer Straight



GURISTAS
Both changes are good, it's about time.



CANCER
Easily one of the most overpowered ship in the game, and you drop its damage bonus by 25% overall.
Orthrus needs a bigger nerf, sorry. Reduce the grid slightly, nuke the agility, and then lets see how things work out Ugh
Is it's damage too much? For sure. But lowering the output doesn't change the fact that it's idiot proof and outperforms everything beyond a linked gank-boat.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

BirdStrike
Doomheim
#120 - 2015-10-17 01:09:35 UTC
Meh.

Time to break out the Gila and enjoy her while she lasts.