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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2221 - 2015-10-16 22:02:41 UTC
Laodell wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Blue Harrier wrote:
So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.

Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.

Profit
Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.


what?

this has nothing to do with jump clones.



Whether or not you think it should have anything to do with Jump Clones is irrelevant. The 'sandbox' allows players to 'game the system' in however manner they think it may profit them. Even if that means using things like jump clones to move to various markets instead of flying there in a Stealth Bomber.

POS Bowling was a beautiful example of this. Not it intended purpose but it worked.


Yeah, you can't take anything with you when you jump clone though. So, handy for moving if you have a supply of things to sell at the destination, but if you don't....so what.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Mashie Saldana
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#2222 - 2015-10-16 22:04:14 UTC
As a 208mill SP toon, I disapprove this.
Something should be done yes but not this way.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#2223 - 2015-10-16 22:05:47 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
and that's different to now how?

if you want to skip the newbie skill grind and go straight to flying t2 cruisers - how much cash do you have?
cos if you want to skip the newbie skill grind you already can.

If I may pay to fly T2 cruiser I don't want to pay for sub. That's the difference. Microtransactions games are free, I can play them for free but propably I never get to the point where people with money are.
It's like someone write here about rigs. They supposed to be optional but they are not. Same will be with SP. Doctrines, new skills (or high level skills, like cruise missiles for T2) etc. It's new income for CCP, which is good. It's bad because it a favors players with bigger wallets.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#2224 - 2015-10-16 22:05:57 UTC
beakerax wrote:
Cearain wrote:
First this would be an additional *option* not a requirement.
Paying for your account with PLEX instead of $ is an option, not a requirement, but I still find myself trying to disabuse new players of the notion that they ought to be grinding isk to "play for free".


Do you want to remove the *option* to play for free so you won't have to tell new player not to try that? I'm not sure of your point.

beakerax wrote:
Cearain wrote:

What is a significant down payment? They haven't really given the costs yet.
They don't need to. Whether or not you agree that game time and sp are equivalent (I don't), you should be able to work out an approximate exchange rate.


I am not sure how this will work really. It would have to be somewhat less than the cost of training 2 characters at once I would think because you are getting less sp than a month training. Plus they are diminishing what you get.

In the end I am not sure what the big deal is. Given the high cost of everything in the aurum store I doubt many people will use this. But if CCP wants to make some extra money it seems reasonable.

I do however think it is obnoxious to give loyal players who presumably have more skillpoints a worse deal then the newer crowd. Are they *trying* to get vets to unsub?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Dave stark
#2225 - 2015-10-16 22:08:00 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
and that's different to now how?

if you want to skip the newbie skill grind and go straight to flying t2 cruisers - how much cash do you have?
cos if you want to skip the newbie skill grind you already can.

If I may pay to fly T2 cruiser I don't want to pay for sub. That's the difference. Microtransactions games are free, I can play them for free but propably I never get to the point where people with money are.
It's like someone write here about rigs. They supposed to be optional but they are not. Same will be with SP. Doctrines, new skills (or high level skills, like cruise missiles for T2) etc. It's new income for CCP, which is good. It's bad because it a favors players with bigger wallets.


you mean like the current system where people with bigger wallets can just buy a new character that can fly doctrine ships if theirs can't?
Laodell
Executable Inc.
#2226 - 2015-10-16 22:10:12 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Laodell wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Blue Harrier wrote:
So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.

Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.

Profit
Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.


what?

this has nothing to do with jump clones.



Whether or not you think it should have anything to do with Jump Clones is irrelevant. The 'sandbox' allows players to 'game the system' in however manner they think it may profit them. Even if that means using things like jump clones to move to various markets instead of flying there in a Stealth Bomber.

POS Bowling was a beautiful example of this. Not it intended purpose but it worked.


it's not what i think.

this system quite literally has nothing to do with jump clones dude.



*Shrug*

The idea alone is enough to kill Eve for me. What's the point ? this proposed change along with Windows 1984 ( Windows 10 ) being released I might as well explore Eve equivalents for Linux.

Please CCP say you're not going to do this. Hell kill the Bazaar completely while you're at it. Please keep the sandbox a level playing field. And roll back Incarna too while you're at it. I still haven't spent my Aurum in protest.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2227 - 2015-10-16 22:12:49 UTC
I can't be arsed to look through a bunch of posting history, but if one of the regular no-lifers wanted to look back and see how many of these righteously indignant high SP whiners are actually purchased on the bazaar, it might show some interesting results.

Mr Epeen Cool
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#2228 - 2015-10-16 22:14:09 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Do you want to remove the *option* to play for free so you won't have to tell new player not to try that? I'm not sure of your point.
My point is that these ~options~ can and will make new players form unrealistic goals which only end up cutting into their enjoyment of the game.

Quote:
I am not sure how this will work really. It would have to be somewhat less than the cost of training 2 characters at once I would think because you are getting less sp than a month training. Plus they are diminishing what you get.

In this system someone is still using gametime to train the sp being sold on the market. Even if the skill extractor was free, a month's worth of training can't cost any less than a month's worth of gametime.
Vec Lennelluc
Cut Throat Commanders
A.W.A.C.S and Friends
#2229 - 2015-10-16 22:17:10 UTC
Even as a new player, I'd have to say this idea is total BS, and is a big turn-off to the veteran players. I've seen companies do this before, and even today, Overkill software did something similar to it's popular Payday 2 franchise. Companies that do things like these stop getting money, quickly, at least from the many veterans they have. CCP, do not do this, it's a terrible idea.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2230 - 2015-10-16 22:22:40 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


here's what we know;

it takes 7.7 days to train 500,000 to extract for a packet with an optimal remap and +5s. this means you can get 4 packets per 30 day period. 30 days gametime is 1.2bn isk.

one packet will be 300m isk, minimum. assuming people don't sell these at a loss.

now consider the following; you only get 10% of that SP back if you're above 80m SP.

that means you need to buy ~40 packets to buy a month's worth of SP. that's 12bn isk, minimum.

now consider that you've got to add the price of neural extractors to that.


Not bad Dave, I like the use of proxies here. Now, looking at your ~40 packets costing ~12 billion this could be used by the very, very rich to gain quite a bit of SP. There are players with sickening amounts of ISK and they could easily afford an entire year’s worth of SP (~144 billion ISK).

Thus, it seems to me this policy will run smack into Malcanis’ Law.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Dave stark
#2231 - 2015-10-16 22:23:04 UTC
Laodell wrote:
Please keep the sandbox a level playing field.


yes let's keep it level by forcing new players to be up to 200m sp behind older players.
Dave stark
#2232 - 2015-10-16 22:24:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


here's what we know;

it takes 7.7 days to train 500,000 to extract for a packet with an optimal remap and +5s. this means you can get 4 packets per 30 day period. 30 days gametime is 1.2bn isk.

one packet will be 300m isk, minimum. assuming people don't sell these at a loss.

now consider the following; you only get 10% of that SP back if you're above 80m SP.

that means you need to buy ~40 packets to buy a month's worth of SP. that's 12bn isk, minimum.

now consider that you've got to add the price of neural extractors to that.


Not bad Dave, I like the use of proxies here. Now, looking at your ~40 packets costing ~12 billion this could be used by the very, very rich to gain quite a bit of SP. There are players with sickening amounts of ISK and they could easily afford an entire year’s worth of SP (~144 billion ISK).

Thus, it seems to me this policy will run smack into Malcanis’ Law.



we've already dispelled that one - this change isn't aimed at new players.

if a new player wants to open their wallet - it benefits them even more than "rich" players.as for the same £$£$ cost they will get more sp than an older player with equally deep pockets.

edit: csm member mike also just worked out it'd cost just over 220 USD to buy a decent subcap pilot, pilots which are currently trading on the bazzar for a fraction of that price.

https://mikeazariah.wordpress.com/2015/10/16/csm-mike-does-maths/#comment-5420
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#2233 - 2015-10-16 22:24:44 UTC
beakerax wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Do you want to remove the *option* to play for free so you won't have to tell new player not to try that? I'm not sure of your point.
My point is that these ~options~ can and will make new players form unrealistic goals which only end up cutting into their enjoyment of the game.

Quote:
I am not sure how this will work really. It would have to be somewhat less than the cost of training 2 characters at once I would think because you are getting less sp than a month training. Plus they are diminishing what you get.

In this system someone is still using gametime to train the sp being sold on the market. Even if the skill extractor was free, a month's worth of training can't cost any less than a month's worth of gametime.



As to your first point, don't you think your being a bit paternalistic. I mean it seems to point to the question of whether eve is for children of for big boys and girls.

If people have more time then money then go ahead and earn the plex in game. If people have more money then time then pay for a plex to buy your ships. I don't see either as a problem.

As for your second point yes. That is if the extractor was free I would assume you are correct. But it won't be free. So its unclear how much this will even be used. You will pay a premium not to have to wait. I don't see the big deal.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2234 - 2015-10-16 22:25:08 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
and that's different to now how?

if you want to skip the newbie skill grind and go straight to flying t2 cruisers - how much cash do you have?
cos if you want to skip the newbie skill grind you already can.

If I may pay to fly T2 cruiser I don't want to pay for sub. That's the difference. Microtransactions games are free, I can play them for free but propably I never get to the point where people with money are.
It's like someone write here about rigs. They supposed to be optional but they are not. Same will be with SP. Doctrines, new skills (or high level skills, like cruise missiles for T2) etc. It's new income for CCP, which is good. It's bad because it a favors players with bigger wallets.


you mean like the current system where people with bigger wallets can just buy a new character that can fly doctrine ships if theirs can't?


So we should make it even easier?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#2235 - 2015-10-16 22:25:19 UTC
atif09 wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:

Think of it like a PI operation.

I set up 3 alts and train them to 15m SP. 5m SP is the minimum before I can extract SP. So I extract 3x 10m SP and sell 30m SP in half the time it would have taken me to train one character to 30m SP. I also didn't have to follow a specific skillplan to create a Caldari or Gallente or Amarr or Minmatar pilot with specific pvp or industry or scanning skills. It's easier than Farmville now.

After the first batch of 30m SP, I repeat the whole operation over again and again.

Sunk cost = roughly 3x4 PLEX to get my 3 alts to 5m SP.

After that it's pure PLEX to SP conversion. Each PLEX is roughly 1m SP from now on.

Do you see a difference now ?



with diminishing returns the sp will be for every 500k sp removed only 50k will be gained on accounts with more than 80m sp

Characters consuming a Transneural Skill Packet will receive the following amounts of unallocated skillpoints, based on the total skillpoints trained before consumption:
• 0 – 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added
• 5 – 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added
• 50 – 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added
• > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added



I was just describing the SP seller point of view, not people who would reapply SP extracted to their main or a clients side.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#2236 - 2015-10-16 22:25:52 UTC
Chrome Veinss wrote:
So the real life subscription price keeps increasing for many players, while the ingame PLEX price also keeps increasing without equivalent buffs to isk faucets.


All buffing faucets will do is cause PLEX to go up even more, as the supply of ISK/etc will rise.

Do you have any actual numbers on the amount of players that are left due to IRL/economic/currency exchange issues versus the players that left because of mechanics changes? Even so, if there were not as many game play reasons why people were leaving, those same people might be inclined to purchase PLEX over in game grinding, and thus make it easier and cheaper to PLEX.

Fix the in game reasons for people leaving, which I think at this point you will agree one of them may be SP but not a huge one, and PLEX may actually go down, as there are more people who want spaceships but don't have the time to grind.

Letting some people buy SP won't fill the universe with the life it needs, it will just let people of means get instant gratification. A few will have their SP faster, and the rest will have the bar set that much higher.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

T1K1
Perkone
Caldari State
#2237 - 2015-10-16 22:26:06 UTC
Some people are acting totally shocked that this would happen, but it's literally what people already do in the character bazaar. The character bazaar was the original focus of this, and people sell SP for ISK there, it's not new. This isn't really any different except that they would let you choose where you wanted the SP to go instead of just buying a character with a bunch of waste on it.

You can already just go to the Character Bazaar and buy any character with any tons of different combinations of SP. Some of them are literally perfected characters for certain activities if you are willing to pay enough. I don't see how this is all that different from the system that already exists except you get more bang for your ISK.
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#2238 - 2015-10-16 22:26:16 UTC
Wow, people coming out against this are really going off the rails. Jump clones and incarna and Windows '84. Wow.

I agree with Dave Stark on this. Zero difference between this and char bazaar. I understand Tippia's point from earlier, but I don't think it holds. The bottom line is that regardless of the character the skills are assigned to, the bazaar system immediately puts the player in possession of an arbitrary number of skill points, and with the volume on the bazaar being what it is and the fact that people train chars with the express intent of selling them, it's not like you're rolling the dice when you buy one.

End result is the identical: spend the money, get the SP you want.

This isn't pay to win. If this were the only way to gain SP, or if these bought SP could give you magical level 6 or 10 in a skill, and that's the only way to get there, okay. Fine. But this isn't that. There's a usefulness cap on SP for any given ship you are flying. Nothing about that has changed.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon

Reiisha
#2239 - 2015-10-16 22:26:33 UTC
Several commenters already mentioned this, and i feel a bit dumb for not realizing this sooner myself...

The only people who will benefit from this are the rich, or the ones who already have a lot of SP to spare.

The people this could actually help cannot afford the feature in the first place.

So yes, it smells like a plain old cash grab which feels like it will only chase people away, not a way to get more people into EVE. There are other things that need to be fixed in order to attract a new crowd...


If CCP wants to offer more opportunities to newbies, just increase the rate of training all the way up to 50m SP or so.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...

Kyttn
Forging Industries
Silent Infinity
#2240 - 2015-10-16 22:26:33 UTC
I don't know if this has been suggested yet, so apologies if I'm repeating anyone:

I think that there should also be diminishing returns when CREATING these neural packets using an extractor, but in reverse order. In other words, characters with higher skill point totals would be able to convert more of their unneeded skill points into unallocated ones, whereas newer characters would see a much less efficient conversion rate. I think this would help to discourage alt farming of excess skill points, and encourage newer players to stick with the decisions they've made unless they're truly willing to pay the price for it. Additionally, that way if someone were looking to sell off their character entirely by liquidating ALL the SP in it, it would become less and less profitable to do so the more SP you sell, meaning it would still be better to sell a character as a whole on the bazaar rather than piecemeal through the new system.

I do have a concern with the flood of SP that would initially be on the market once this feature is released. I forsee tons of long-unsubbed accounts being reactivated for just one month so that their SP can be liquidated down to the 5 million minimum, and everyone rushing to buy up all this excess SP like a California Land Rush while there's still plenty to be had. Perhaps we could consider a maximum amount of SP that are able to be extracted and injected per day/week/month? With something like a jump clone timer to help keep track? This seems like it would be a good compromise between the old system (where you had to wait for skill to be fully trained) and the new proposed system (where a new character can effictively reach the same level as a 3 year old character in a matter of hours if he had enough isk), at least until the effects can be better assessed.

And finally, I'm a little concerned about the effect this would have on skill training implants and vice versa. Would we see the need and therefor the value of these implants diminish? Or would they become even more important for those trying to farm SP? And would the drop rates of these implants be adjusted to compensate? What about characters who are injecting SP packets into their clones that have implants in them already? Would a 500,000 packet be boosted somehow if you had a full set of +5's in your head? I wouldn't think so, but it's not something that was addressed in the OP so I'd like to see that point clarified.