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A kind request for metrics on warfare link use
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#101 - 2015-10-13 14:52:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Since there is no chance of CCP giving you what you asked i thought you were joking and used the thread to counter the impulse that people have towards putting boosts on grid, as though that would be better for the game.

No boosts at all would be better than boosts on grid. By far. Short of a complete overhaul of related mods and hulls.
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2015-10-13 16:19:01 UTC
Removing links completely from game is the best case scenario, but of course it will not happen because they've already been in game for too long so people think they are somehow necessary for the game even though they are actually completely unnecessary.

Putting links on grid is a bad idea because it won't change much other than soloers won't be able to bring their T3s with them (they could but it would be much riskier and more difficult). Fleets would still have links the majority of the time so the problem would be practically unchanged.

Putting links on KMs is actually a good idea because killboards are good for one thing only and that is intel, so that would be a useful change for sure. But that by itself is not nearly enough, and weapon and suspect timers do next to nothing because you can just sit in safe spot and cloak and the problem remains practically unchanged.

Links must be removed from game, or nerfed into the ground. Or, altered in such a way that they have a dynamic role that requires active participation, but still nerfed because their bonuses are over-powered pieces of crap.
Austneal
Nero Fazione
#103 - 2015-10-13 18:14:17 UTC
Oddsodz wrote:
So again I will ask very kindly if CCP would be so kind to come up with my requested info.


Do you honestly think they're going to do this for you?
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#104 - 2015-10-13 19:43:13 UTC
Austneal wrote:
Oddsodz wrote:
So again I will ask very kindly if CCP would be so kind to come up with my requested info.


Do you honestly think they're going to do this for you?


Didn't you get the memo? This generation of kids believes they are entitled to everything without any kind of work involved.
Oddsodz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2015-10-13 22:34:31 UTC
Hey, Nobody said I could not ask. And until CPP come along and say yes or no, I feel I can ask all I like. Won't hurt anybody thats for for sure.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#106 - 2015-10-14 13:21:26 UTC
It is very unlikely that CCP would give one player more intel than any others. I would be interested in the actual statistics of how much more often ogbs are used - especially in faction war plex fights. Although I want to know this information it would be idiotic for ccp to publicize this information, if the in fact the use is on the rise. So I hope they keep it secret.

I know op said that people beat to death whether ogb is good or bad. But I had actually never heard that ogb must stay otherwise logi won't be as effective. That Crosi would argue that as a reason to keep ogb just shows how differently he views the game.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2015-10-14 13:41:10 UTC
Cearain wrote:

I know op said that people beat to death whether ogb is good or bad. But I had actually never heard that ogb must stay otherwise logi won't be as effective. That Crosi would argue that as a reason to keep ogb just shows how differently he views the game.

Can't help but feel that he wants links to stay so he can fly around in zero tank Garmur and kill noobs. Logis don't have anything to do with it, if links were removed today they would be fine. Links make everything better not just logis. They're seriously the dumbest part of this game. Remove them and worst case scenario you have to buff logistics afterwards. It would still be better in the long run.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#108 - 2015-10-14 14:06:05 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Cearain wrote:

I know op said that people beat to death whether ogb is good or bad. But I had actually never heard that ogb must stay otherwise logi won't be as effective. That Crosi would argue that as a reason to keep ogb just shows how differently he views the game.

Can't help but feel that he wants links to stay so he can fly around in zero tank Garmur and kill noobs. Logis don't have anything to do with it, if links were removed today they would be fine. Links make everything better not just logis. They're seriously the dumbest part of this game. Remove them and worst case scenario you have to buff logistics afterwards. It would still be better in the long run.


Dude, you do know there are links that increase your resists and remount reps, right? I guess those would have nothing to do with the effectiveness of Logi, eh? In fact, information links allow Logi to lock quicker and provide a boost to the ECCM mods. Skirmish links reduce Logi sig radius making them harder to hit, and increase their AB/MWD speed so they can better keep up with the fleet. Yeah, links make Logi super effective. So much so, that most Incursion fleets won't run without them.

You all continue to look at this in the realm of "solo" pvp in FW. You seem to forget that OGBs are used by miners, mission runners, and Incursioners. So in your quest to fix your way of playing the game, you seem to be leaving out everyone else.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#109 - 2015-10-14 14:22:32 UTC
Cearain wrote:
It is very unlikely that CCP would give one player more intel than any others. I would be interested in the actual statistics of how much more often ogbs are used - especially in faction war plex fights. Although I want to know this information it would be idiotic for ccp to publicize this information, if the in fact the use is on the rise. So I hope they keep it secret.

I know op said that people beat to death whether ogb is good or bad. But I had actually never heard that ogb must stay otherwise logi won't be as effective. That Crosi would argue that as a reason to keep ogb just shows how differently he views the game.


Yes, i like all pvp from micro to macro. You pretty much want the game balanced for solo play and all other scales be damned.
Arla Sarain
#110 - 2015-10-14 15:15:15 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Cearain wrote:
It is very unlikely that CCP would give one player more intel than any others. I would be interested in the actual statistics of how much more often ogbs are used - especially in faction war plex fights. Although I want to know this information it would be idiotic for ccp to publicize this information, if the in fact the use is on the rise. So I hope they keep it secret.

I know op said that people beat to death whether ogb is good or bad. But I had actually never heard that ogb must stay otherwise logi won't be as effective. That Crosi would argue that as a reason to keep ogb just shows how differently he views the game.


Yes, i like all pvp from micro to macro. You pretty much want the game balanced for solo play and all other scales be damned.

That's hardly fair considering that the odds of a solo/small gang fight erupting spontaneously is much higher than the probability of a large scale fight happening.

Coincidentally, solo/small gang fights is where links become the dominant determinator of the outcome and not having them is hardly a "choice".

How badly would it impact large fleets? Hard to imagine it would absolutely crush them. Or even make them boring. Or even scratch them.

Shamelessly avoiding the subject of Incursions. Pretty sure there was a time when they were run without links; that and the common opinion that Incursions generally need a nerf in their own right considering the risk taken for the wealth attained.
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2015-10-14 15:29:50 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:


Dude, you do know there are links that increase your resists and remount reps, right? I guess those would have nothing to do with the effectiveness of Logi, eh? In fact, information links allow Logi to lock quicker and provide a boost to the ECCM mods. Skirmish links reduce Logi sig radius making them harder to hit, and increase their AB/MWD speed so they can better keep up with the fleet. Yeah, links make Logi super effective. So much so, that most Incursion fleets won't run without them.

You all continue to look at this in the realm of "solo" pvp in FW. You seem to forget that OGBs are used by miners, mission runners, and Incursioners. So in your quest to fix your way of playing the game, you seem to be leaving out everyone else.

Links make everything stupidly effective, like, to the point of being ridiculous and over powered.

Just because links make things easier, does not mean that they are required.

Removing links, or mercilessly nerfing them, would not only fix solo PvP, it would fix PvP throughout all areas of the game. If you think that links are required use for any part of this game, you're seriously mistaken.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#112 - 2015-10-14 16:01:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Asking null to get used to having to be undocked and active throughout their prime time to defend their space hasnt worked out well because its a culture shock.

Asking people to expect for their reps to never hold on t1 cruisers, or even to expect to live long enough to get a rep cycle off in 15v15 fights. Asking people to be happy that 3rd parties can just warp in 3-5 alpha nados and pretty much 1 shot any cruiser off field. Its the culture shock thats the problem. Not the fact that people will just die much easier.

The other problem is that pirates who dont really fly anything smaller than commandships / t3's can quite happily keep their booster on field, Anything smaller in hull-size or just smaller in numbers than the local easy-mode powerbocks will have a great price to pay in replacing a commandship pretty much at the will of 3rd parties.

Now i appreciate that most of the whiners on here just fly kestrels and looks for low sp targets. But to make that entry level pvp fairer you are impacting a far greater number of people.

Though as i have said. I cant imagine how a nano fleet can ever expect to have boosts on field. Unless the hulls and modules are rebuilt from scratch.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#113 - 2015-10-14 16:53:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Thanatos Marathon
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Asking null to get used to having to be undocked and active throughout their prime time to defend their space hasnt worked out well because its a culture shock.

Asking people to expect for their reps to never hold on t1 cruisers, or even to expect to live long enough to get a rep cycle off in 15v15 fights. Asking people to be happy that 3rd parties can just warp in 3-5 alpha nados and pretty much 1 shot any cruiser off field. Its the culture shock thats the problem. Not the fact that people will just die much easier.

The other problem is that pirates who dont really fly anything smaller than commandships / t3's can quite happily keep their booster on field, Anything smaller in hull-size or just smaller in numbers than the local easy-mode powerbocks will have a great price to pay in replacing a commandship pretty much at the will of 3rd parties.

Now i appreciate that most of the whiners on here just fly kestrels and looks for low sp targets. But to make that entry level pvp fairer you are impacting a far greater number of people.

Though as i have said. I cant imagine how a nano fleet can ever expect to have boosts on field. Unless the hulls and modules are rebuilt from scratch.


Nano BC with warfare link, woot!

P.S. I gave in and started training a combat booster again last night :p

JUSTK is recruiting
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#114 - 2015-10-14 17:23:42 UTC
Drake fleets have always been viable with OGB, but are not exactly what i would call nano.

Ishtars, cerbs, crapacals etc all are far too fast and fragile to be supported by a claymore.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#115 - 2015-10-14 18:15:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Portmanteau
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
So because 2-3 guys
Note the disingenuous implication that it's literally only 2-3 people who don't like links


Quote:
dont have as much fun dunking scrubs
Note the ironic accusation of dunking outmatched/unskillful players when a cursory glance at the poster's KB reveals he enjoys dunking frigates in a linked faction fit Garmur Lol

Quote:
we have to steamroll over all gang and fleet warfare?
Note the assumption that any change to links (from the current status quo that the poster enjoys for solo frigate dunking) would automatically be a holocaust for all small gang/ fleet warfare, when the poster (or anyone else) doesn't actually know for sure what form this change will take.

Quote:
I would guess that the effect that OGB is having on a few people who for some reason think solo is a good thing would pale into insignificance when faced with every fleet member coming to the realisation that overnight they will need twice the number of logi to tank what they did the day before. Even then they will get alphad a lot easier.
Note the change in style of language when describing the effects of changing links for fleet warfare.. suddenly it's "every fleet member" ...every member of a single fleet ? Every fleet member in the known universe ? Quite a contrast to the disingenuously limited description of 2-3 solers who don't like links that would "pale into insignificance" in comparison to the infinite swathes of mortified fleet pvpers.

Crosi, your apocalyptic fearmongering about what will happen to fleet/gang warfare if links move on grid is a) baseless since nobody other than CCP and perhaps the CSM really knows what the change will be be and b) predicated on a false implication that fleet/gang warfare didn't happen routinely and without problems before OGB became the norm... let me assure you (as if you didn't actually know)...it did. Before off grid tengus/claymores/lokis or what ever, solo fights happened, blobs blobbed and ship exploded everywhere with great frequency. Many changes to ships and mechanics have happened over the years, pvp endured as it will endure any change to links. This change is coming and you need to HTFU and get used to the idea.

Disclaimer : I don't use links, I still pvp anyway, I solo almost 100% of the time, I don't mind dunking noobs and farmers as well as other pvpers.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#116 - 2015-10-14 18:35:46 UTC
1, Yes that is disingenuous. Not many people are quitting because of OGB though mate.

2. Ill take fights against low sp toons. Ill also take fights ridiculously outnumbered. Barely any of those kills you see on my killboard were solo targets. usually im warping into well over a dozen targets.

3. Im not being apocalyptic. The advocates for putting boosts on grid in this thread are literally saying that OGB are a very large reason why eve is dying. Im just saying that changes to boosts will negatively effect a lot more people than the small kernel of soloists who quit the game ages ago because they chose what was ultimately a boring a vacuous play style.

Im not saying fights wont happen, im just saying they will be a lot shorter and less rewarding on the fleet level. Tendencies to fly with lots more logisitics and an arbitrary buff to alpha fleets if their target decides to not field a commandship with their t1 cruiser gang. Let alone the fact that there is simply no commandships that can boost on grid for a shield nano cruiser gang.

All im saying, is that the majority of players are silent on this topic. They will be effected negatively as much if not more than the benefits to the handful of vocal soloishts.

The question is, when they are getting vaporised on field like no properly readied fleet has for many years are they going to look forward tot he next fleet where they will again just get vaporised with no hope of reps in any decent sized fight?

I can see from your killboard that you are just another kestrel / tormentor pilot. Not to belittle your place in eve but wanting the game balanced with such inconsequential pvp in mind is very short sighted.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#117 - 2015-10-14 18:36:27 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:


Dude, you do know there are links that increase your resists and remount reps, right? I guess those would have nothing to do with the effectiveness of Logi, eh? In fact, information links allow Logi to lock quicker and provide a boost to the ECCM mods. Skirmish links reduce Logi sig radius making them harder to hit, and increase their AB/MWD speed so they can better keep up with the fleet. Yeah, links make Logi super effective. So much so, that most Incursion fleets won't run without them.

You all continue to look at this in the realm of "solo" pvp in FW. You seem to forget that OGBs are used by miners, mission runners, and Incursioners. So in your quest to fix your way of playing the game, you seem to be leaving out everyone else.

Links make everything stupidly effective, like, to the point of being ridiculous and over powered.

Just because links make things easier, does not mean that they are required.

Removing links, or mercilessly nerfing them, would not only fix solo PvP, it would fix PvP throughout all areas of the game. If you think that links are required use for any part of this game, you're seriously mistaken.


There is no fixing "Solo PVP" in a MMO. Expecting guaranteed solo PVP in a Massively Multiplayer Online game is just stupid.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#118 - 2015-10-14 18:51:41 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
1, Yes that is disingenuous. Not many people are quitting because of OGB though mate.

2. Ill take fights against low sp toons. Ill also take fights ridiculously outnumbered. Barely any of those kills you see on my killboard were solo targets. usually im warping into well over a dozen targets.

3. Im not being apocalyptic. The advocates for putting boosts on grid in this thread are literally saying that OGB are a very large reason why eve is dying. Im just saying that changes to boosts will negatively effect a lot more people than the small kernel of soloists who quit the game ages ago because they chose what was ultimately a boring a vacuous play style.

Im not saying fights wont happen, im just saying they will be a lot shorter and less rewarding on the fleet level. Tendencies to fly with lots more logisitics and an arbitrary buff to alpha fleets if their target decides to not field a commandship with their t1 cruiser gang. Let alone the fact that there is simply no commandships that can boost on grid for a shield nano cruiser gang.

All im saying, is that the majority of players are silent on this topic. They will be effected negatively as much if not more than the benefits to the handful of vocal soloishts.

The question is, when they are getting vaporised on field like no properly readied fleet has for many years are they going to look forward tot he next fleet where they will again just get vaporised with no hope of reps in any decent sized fight?

I can see from your killboard that you are just another kestrel / tormentor pilot. Not to belittle your place in eve but wanting the game balanced with such inconsequential pvp in mind is very short sighted.


If links stay the same I'll continue as I always do, not an issue for me really, I just find it funny that you imply that fleet and gang warfare will be seriously impaired by on grid links.. it won't, it will just e different, just as it was before links were a thing... surely you cannot dispute that fleet/gang pvp happened without any major problems before links were the norm ?

Thing is, you also imply that it's just us soloers that think OGB is a bad mechanic. Again you are being disingenuous, pvpers from all disciplines recognise it as such, you only have to look at discussions on reddit/failheap/blogs and these forums to see it's far from just a few solo kestrel pilots.

I don't think eve is dying due to links, I don't even know if it's dying. I do think CCP (if you've read the CSM minutes) recognise OGB as a bad mechanic, un EvElike in risk reward. I agree, not just because I like to solo, I have done that despite the prevalence of links for years. It's just a shite mechanic and it's going to get changed... and you know, pvp in all it's forms will survive just as it did before the prevalence of links.

But by all means Crosi ... rage against the dying of the light, just do it more honestly.
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2015-10-14 18:59:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Desideratus
I understand what you're saying, Estella. I've always said that "solo" PvP is just a myth, because any PvP by definition requires at least two players in participation to qualify as PvP. You can't PvP all by yourself. Of course, when people say "solo PvP", what they mean is just a lone player fighting against other player(s). (usually outnumbered, against The Blob, etc)

All you've done just now is taken a couple words of what I said and attacked it out of context. There is no fixing solo PvP because solo PvP does not need fixing, it is alive and well and one of the greatest aspects of this game. Overall PvP in general is very good, there are problems with ship balance (as always, various ships are above, various ships are below) but overall it's decent.

The one big problem in Eve PvP is OGBs. All aspects of Eve would benefit from nerfing OGBs. Well, maybe Incursions would be a little tougher, maybe Incursions need fixing anyway, but OGBs are terrible and everyone knows it. The change is coming.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#120 - 2015-10-14 19:09:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Fleets will be massively effected by on grid boosting. There are people that we cant fight without having links. They will have theirs safely on field behind layers of potential triage and slowcat escalations, while ours will be on grid for them to drop 2 dreads on and vaoprise it in full knowledge that if we escalate they can just drop 40 supers and 10 titans on it. Thats assuming they dont massively outclass us with subcaps and blap the booster with those. Either way that one obvious kill folds the rest of our fleet.

Often we use smaller hulls to fight smaller numbers of bigger ships, like assault frigates vs cruisers/battlecruisers or battleships. Now separate to the question of if that should be viable, it currently is with boosters and far less so without them due to lower risists/buffer and sig. There is no on grid booster than can realistically support such a doctrine. unless all fights return to gates like the days of old.

Personally i like the fighting away from gates. It was always very tedious waiting for the other side to take the gate guns. Couple on grid boosts with weapons timers though and what you have is a huge rift between the larger bodies who arnt really risking their commandship in their 80 man abso fleet, and everyone else who just inst willing to lose a commandship in every 15v15 cruiser fight.

TL;DR - The largest alliances will not be effected but boosts on grid. Smaller groups will seldom field them. Thus gap between them increases insurmountably.