EVE General Discussion

This feels like an extended whine, but just in case it is not.

I am sure that everyone on this thread (Regardless of their 'pure PVP' pretensions) has had a mining op disrupted, a hauling ship ganked out from under them, and or a carebear boat crucified. (All three have happened to me in my day). The game is supposed to be about rebuilding what you had with worn out tools. That's how the veterans got to be veterans and how newbies will also learn to appreciate this game.

Anyway, CCP can't change it now, it would be false advertizing. The game was sold with the understanding that it contains griefing, that you were griefed means that you got what you paid for.

Pirates get griefed too; They are called names and threatened by carebears in space, They are hunted by anti-pirates, they die humiliating deaths sometimes to badger mkII's and mining barges, they get trolled on failure (Imagine the humiliation of shooting at a mining barge and when the smoke all clears finding the barge is still there, that's happened to me), and noone in Eve gets killed more than someone trying to learn solo-piracy.

Correct. Didn't all the pictures of ships blowing up and missles, bombs and lazors kind of give that away when you first looked at the website? If not, did you not start to get the picture when you realised that all the stuff you can do other than PVP sucks? Did you not see the light when you first tried the magnificient PVP experience and were blown away by what it offers? Edit: On reflection your post suggests you might have passed on this bit.

Eve is a PVP game that offers activities to players in order to generate funds to replace their PVP losses without having to use real money. Most of these activities are boring and have not been focused on as they are not core gameplay. Don't blame the game, it's working as intended, you are just confused and misguided about what sort of game it is.

The only T1 indies that would need a buff in this respect are the Amarr ones, because not only do Amarr ships armor tank (which uses PG which indies don't have), but they also have the smallest cargo holds.

Mastodon: 100m, 61000ehp,17000m3,118m/s, 18.1s allignment
Drake: 35m, 111458EHP, 345 m3, top speed 1038m/s and 460 dps. 11.7s alignment

I don't understand your point the mastodon costs 3x as much as a drake, gets 460 less dps, 1/10th of the top speed and 60% of the ehp all so it can transport a small amount of minerals. Even then if you want to try to get away it carrys less than 7000m3 and only 50000ehp if you want a prop mod.

On to the Freighter.

Obelisk: 899m, 200000ehp, 937500m3, 102m/s, 43 second alignment.
Abaddon: 163m, 183000ehp, 525m3, 678m/s, 21.7s alignment, 900dps
Hulk, low yield: 200m, 22000ehp, 187 defence, 88m/s, 17.4s alignment, 150dps
Hulk, Useful: 200m, 11000ehp, 82 defence, 88m/s, 17.4s alignment, 150dps

Once again you just want really easy kills. An abaddon is only 18% of the cost of an obelisk around the same cost as a hulk. The obelisk has roughly the same EHP, 1/6th the speed with no dps. The hulk has 1/10th of the ehp.

These numbers are without implants, all skills V. Hauling ships and mining ships trade off every single survivability and combat attribute for some storage space. There are a lot of people who play space games for the trade and industry side and CCP is ignoring this potential market and laying off employees because it does not have enough money.

Added: My Viator carrys 10300m3 and goes as fast as a the drake and can cloak which makes it quite fair if not a bit lame for people in lowsec but at least it represents its cost well.
For the people that believe industry ships moving things should have pvp alts or other pvp support, you guys are just making up things that sound nice. In industry you are competing heavily against bots.....the ultimate in low cost so paying somebody to cover you is not possible and also having been part of a group testing the ability to run industrials and freighters past gate camps and attacks it is simply impossible even with the web exploit. So I've been there and done that and know that you are full of ****.

Er... 111k ehp Drake? WTF kind of brick Drake are you flying, bro?

Speed of Mastodon is irrelevant, and it is so slow that a prop mod is rather useless. Mastodon also has lower sig radius (harder to hit) than a Drake and has 2x built-in WCSes. Note, too, that a Mastodon doesn't carry "a small amount of materials". It can carry a whole Drake, plus have room left over -- and that's without cargohold optimization rigs. It can carry two Drakes if you settle for "only" 50k EHP.

Keep in mind that the Mastodon's "role" is secure, dumb, slow transit through hisec, or well-scouted low/null sec. In hisec, that means being able to hold its own against a suicide gank. A Tornado at best alpha's around 10k EHP, so against a 61k EHP Mastodon, you would need at least around 350 mil ISK in ships to kill it (assuming a fitted tornado ~= 60 mil ISK). That sounds rather reasonably balanced for cost efficiency.

In riskier environments, its base 2 WCS let it escape lead tacklers like interceptors and frigates. You need at least two scrams or a scram and a disruptor, or three disruptors on it to stop it from warping. Again, for a T2 ship worth less than a HAC, very good for the price. You do need to fly it carefully, though.



Confirming I "just want really easy kills". I have never killed a freighter, and have killed maybe 1-2 Hulks in my two years playing Eve. They were in 0.0 and I was in a frigate gang.

Again, 183k ehp Abaddon?! What did the poor thing do to you for you to abuse it by putting so much tank on it? You do realize that the Abaddon is supposed to be able to do things other than be a brick, right?

I think you missed the part where freighters are giant flying boxes and little more. The Obelisk is 10x more massive than the Abaddon, and can carry 35 Abaddons inside it. Running a cost analysis on the hull, to suicide gank an Obelisk you would need ~20 Tornados, so around 1.2 billion ISK in ships. There is absolutely no sense in attacking a freighter unless you know before-hand (via spies, etc) that it will be carrying tons of goodies.

Similarly, there is no reason you would ever fly a freighter around in lowsec or nullsec. There, jump freighters are a ton faster, and a ton safer.

So far as Hulks, a maximum yield Hulk has about 9k EHP and mines 1920 ore per minute. If you lower your yield by 10% to 1732 per minute, you can have a Hulk that has 23k EHP. I do not see how that is not a "useful" Hulk. To suicide gank it, you need to spend way more than its ISK worth, plus possibly have the embarassing prospect of the Hulk shooting you with its drones as you get Concorded, and it getting the kill. For hisec and other safe space mining, Hulks are fine.



Keep in mind that a Drake or an Abaddon is a sunk cost at the time of purchase. It's a combat ship, it will see combat, and it will die... most likely without making you any profit. Industrial ships are investments. Treat them right, and you most likely will not lose them, and you will see lots of ISK revenue from your investment in time.

Industrials trade their combat abilities for a whole massive load of storage space, and retain good amounts of survivability for the effort and ISK it takes to stop them. As all ships in eve, they could use iteration and extra shinies, like "ninja-miner" ships for lowsec/nullsec ops in hostile space, or tweaking of some attributes. The basic concepts are fine and are there, though. They are more vulnerable than equivalent priced combat ships, but they have a lot more potential ISK reward.

tl;dr: ISK vs Reward; HTFU; L2fit; etc etc etc

as I watched my small corp wither away and new players drop shortly after the free time ran out for the reasons cited above I have to say that it wasnt always this way. Before Incursion, Incarna, Cruicible, casual high sec players could mine, do PI, run missions in relative safety with limited returns. It was fun and they eventually earned enough to buy a better ship or mod. Today, high sec mining, PI, is almost devoid of profit, and mindless miner killing by suicide pilots has pretty much said, go away casual people that just enjoy hanging out and chatting with friends while they mine.

I too, am just waiting out my plex time , there is not much left in high sec worth doing , and nothing to encourage new players to spend money on subs for.

Eve has a long learning curve.

The price for freedom to do just about anything you want is that you know someone else's undoubtedly thought of it first. While bad things can happen, you always have a chance to get even, if you're sufficiently smart and determined. This is one of the few games where intelligence is actually rewarded in a more or less true darwinian fashion.

If that's not something that appeals to you, then no, it's not the game for you.

Has nothing to do with learning curve, has to do with balance. Currently these is none as I've already stated.

As I understood the original post ...

A purpose built industrial ship cannot tank a purpose built combat ship

I have been here for quite a while too, and even after reading OP's and other peoples experiences, I still FAIL to see the supposed benefit that adding ehp/warp core str/agi/apple pies/clowns/transvestite midgets to Industrial ships will create or improve on them.

Industrial DIE, and FAST. It's part of their "role".

As much as adding or buffing an Industrial ship might sound good on paper, in theory it will only make them last about 5 more seconds tops. This will perhaps make them less desirable target by the RANDOM LONE WOLFS out there, but any decent pirate/suicider plans ahead and is always with a mate around, even if its himself in a second account.

If there's a change needed is the attitude of pretending apple pies need to be chocolate cakes. See, apple pies are apple pies, no matter how deep you make the crust. It will always be filled with delicious apple filling.

Trying to improve on the "recipe" by adding an extra crust will only make it a bigger apple or a funny shaped/looking apple pie, but an apple pie NONETHELESS.

That point aside, yes, eve is unforgiving on noobies and totally lacking in any real direction once you are put out in space. No matter how much they tweak the new player experience.

If we want a diff eve, one that makes noobiets more prone to stay and engage in meaningful actions they consider fun, honestly, the only thing I can say for certain, BUFFING industrials is not the way, not even remotely the way to start.

If you want to mix apple pies with the issue of why kids are not eating veggies, you kinda missing the point and simply adding a new issue to a completely unrelated one.

If we want your noobies eating veggies and staying healthy and keep playing eve, let's focus on that and not beginning to explain why apple pies crusts should be thicker or why not make apple pies crusts resistant to falls so they wont spill the filling easier, when everyone just wants to eat apple pies and others bake em.

Honestly, so much mix and match here , it's like 10 people wanting to change a light bulb and none of them actually knowing what a light bulb is.

All in all, keep carrying on, this threads needs better ideas and a new change in direction.

Also, I like apple pie.