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Intergalactic Summit

 
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A Simple Question For Combat Capsuleers...

Author
Arrendis
TK Corp
#61 - 2015-10-13 22:11:37 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
And that's what I was saying you need. That overarching loyalty to put the difficulties of the day-to-day into context - belonging to something not only bigger than you are, but bigger than your outfit is.


I'm not the one saying that the State itself is a lie, and only the interests of the individual Megacorps, not the collective interests of the Caldari people (which are not the same thing - an advance by Lai Dai that comes at the expense of the others is not in the interests of the whole, but can be seen to be in the interests of Lai Dai, for example), truly matter.

And to look at your construction? Your 'outfit' is your immediate corp? Your Alliance, maybe?

My loyalties are to the Imperium. It's bigger than GEWNS, it's bigger than CONDI. I work every day alongside people from SMA, FCON, Bastion, RZR, TNT... when I talk about 'my guys', they aren't limited by a ticker, be it corp or alliance. They are my day-to-day. And I'm pretty sure I've got it in context: we are each of us beholden to one another, regardless of corp, alliance, ethnicity, or Region of residence. It's about the people. Not a 'political identity', not even a cultural identity. The individuals I know, the individuals they know. Keep that network going out far enough, and you may get to the 'political identity', but let's face it, that's not gonna mean anything, really. It's about people.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#62 - 2015-10-13 22:21:30 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
And that's what I was saying you need. That overarching loyalty to put the difficulties of the day-to-day into context - belonging to something not only bigger than you are, but bigger than your outfit is.


I'm not the one saying that the State itself is a lie, and only the interests of the individual Megacorps, not the collective interests of the Caldari people (which are not the same thing - an advance by Lai Dai that comes at the expense of the others is not in the interests of the whole, but can be seen to be in the interests of Lai Dai, for example), truly matter.

And to look at your construction? Your 'outfit' is your immediate corp? Your Alliance, maybe?

My loyalties are to the Imperium. It's bigger than GEWNS, it's bigger than CONDI. I work every day alongside people from SMA, FCON, Bastion, RZR, TNT... when I talk about 'my guys', they aren't limited by a ticker, be it corp or alliance. They are my day-to-day. And I'm pretty sure I've got it in context: we are each of us beholden to one another, regardless of corp, alliance, ethnicity, or Region of residence. It's about the people. Not a 'political identity', not even a cultural identity. The individuals I know, the individuals they know. Keep that network going out far enough, and you may get to the 'political identity', but let's face it, that's not gonna mean anything, really. It's about people.


Damn.

Straight.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#63 - 2015-10-13 23:24:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Desiderya
Arrendis wrote:


Considering the profession is defined as fighting for money, not causes?

Gee, I don't know.



We expect good coin for good work.
There are plenty of causes we don't care about. Some we do.
Just because someone's waving money around doesn't mean we're going to work for him.
We have standards, after all, and as I've said already: We can afford choice.


And I would assume this is the case for most mercenaries out there. The majority of conflicts going on in the cluster are meaningless. They're important enough for one or the other side to warrant paying someone over it. But most folks I know have something they care about. Sometimes it's a matter of prize, sometimes it's absolutes.
Even spoken as a killer - I wouldn't do everything someone would pay me for. There are boundaries.

As you've been talking about causes. These are not mutually exclusive. As much as you can pursue more than one goal you can make decisions on timing, planning and strategy to achieve them.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2015-10-14 01:38:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Desiderya wrote:
Arrendis wrote:


Considering the profession is defined as fighting for money, not causes?

Gee, I don't know.



We expect good coin for good work.
There are plenty of causes we don't care about. Some we do.
Just because someone's waving money around doesn't mean we're going to work for him.
We have standards, after all, and as I've said already: We can afford choice.


And I would assume this is the case for most mercenaries out there. The majority of conflicts going on in the cluster are meaningless. They're important enough for one or the other side to warrant paying someone over it. But most folks I know have something they care about. Sometimes it's a matter of prize, sometimes it's absolutes.
Even spoken as a killer - I wouldn't do everything someone would pay me for. There are boundaries.

As you've been talking about causes. These are not mutually exclusive. As much as you can pursue more than one goal you can make decisions on timing, planning and strategy to achieve them.


For example I do not take money for shooting civilians. I shoot warning shots at civilians to make them clear off and if the agent makes a fuzz about it he can go do the shooting himself.

But frankly, on reflection, this had nothing to do with moral standards and more to do with not finding civilians particularly interesting targets. If the civilians had retaliated with turrets or improvised weaponry, chances are, I would actually start firing at them with the intention to maim and kill.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#65 - 2015-10-14 07:42:04 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:

For example I do not take money for shooting civilians. I shoot warning shots at civilians to make them clear off and if the agent makes a fuzz about it he can go do the shooting himself.

And why I do not believe you?
Maybe it's because you serve FDU and was openly lying about me on quite a few occasions?
Nope. I don't believe you and don't recommend others to believe you.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2015-10-14 07:47:35 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:

For example I do not take money for shooting civilians. I shoot warning shots at civilians to make them clear off and if the agent makes a fuzz about it he can go do the shooting himself.

And why I do not believe you?
Maybe it's because you serve FDU and was openly lying about me on quite a few occasions?
Nope. I don't believe you and don't recommend others to believe you.


Says the person who can't even conceptualise the Pi and talks about honour after sending a Caracal after a Probe in a Data Site.

I am honest in stating that I will likely kill civilians if they were shooting at me.

Can you say the same?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#67 - 2015-10-14 08:12:28 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:

I am honest

Said the person claiming in other place I 'got naked' for you and here that I 'can't even conceptualise the Pi'.

No, you aren't honest. You are irreparable liar. Go away.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#68 - 2015-10-14 11:50:54 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:


For example I do not take money for shooting civilians. I shoot warning shots at civilians to make them clear off and if the agent makes a fuzz about it he can go do the shooting himself.

But frankly, on reflection, this had nothing to do with moral standards and more to do with not finding civilians particularly interesting targets. If the civilians had retaliated with turrets or improvised weaponry, chances are, I would actually start firing at them with the intention to maim and kill.


Exactly.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#69 - 2015-10-15 16:31:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Arrendis wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
And that's what I was saying you need. That overarching loyalty to put the difficulties of the day-to-day into context - belonging to something not only bigger than you are, but bigger than your outfit is.


I'm not the one saying that the State itself is a lie, and only the interests of the individual Megacorps, not the collective interests of the Caldari people (which are not the same thing - an advance by Lai Dai that comes at the expense of the others is not in the interests of the whole, but can be seen to be in the interests of Lai Dai, for example), truly matter.

And to look at your construction? Your 'outfit' is your immediate corp? Your Alliance, maybe?

My loyalties are to the Imperium. It's bigger than GEWNS, it's bigger than CONDI. I work every day alongside people from SMA, FCON, Bastion, RZR, TNT... when I talk about 'my guys', they aren't limited by a ticker, be it corp or alliance. They are my day-to-day. And I'm pretty sure I've got it in context: we are each of us beholden to one another, regardless of corp, alliance, ethnicity, or Region of residence. It's about the people. Not a 'political identity', not even a cultural identity. The individuals I know, the individuals they know. Keep that network going out far enough, and you may get to the 'political identity', but let's face it, that's not gonna mean anything, really. It's about people.


Terms... *sigh* You're right, I suppose I need to define them.

I am an employee of Pyre Falcon, which is part of the Multicultural F1 Brigade Alliance. As far as I'm aware, whilst Pyre Falcon is an affiliate of Kaalakiota corporation, it's not necessarily the case that other members of MCF1B are affiliates of KK or even affiliates of any other Caldari Corporation.

Kaalakiota is, of course, one of the Okusaiken, the eight Megas that form the CEP. The CEP is capable of issuing orders that are binding on all of the Megas and their authority, therefore, extends over the territory owned by the Okusaiken collectively, referred to as The Caldari State or The State.

Many laws, languages and customs apply over the entirety of this area, and these can be called "Caldari Laws, Languages and Customs" but each separate area or region has it's own laws, languages and customs too. Some of these can be classified as pertaining to the regions they reside in, but of these regional differences many pertain to the governing Corporation rather more than any notional regional difference.

Ranked in order of scale (from Large to Small), I'd probably say that my loyalties could be expressed as:

Eve Cluster
"The Empires"
Caldari/Amarr Alliance
Caldari State
Kaalakiota Corporation / MCF1B (Larger organisations that PF is affiliated with but which are not affiliated with each other.)
Pyre Falcon
Tuulinen Family

Of course, if you were to sort these according to personal importance (Lesser to Greater) you'd get a different list.

Eve Cluster
"The Empires"
MCF1B Alliance
Caldari/Amarr Alliance
Caldari State
Kaalakiota Corporation
Pyre Falcon
Tuulinen Family

Someone like Diana Kim, of course, would place the Caldari State ahead of Megacorporate sponsor and Corporate employer importance. She's a believer in strong centralised nationalistic government. She might even place The State ahead of her own family - probably would, in fact.

I'm only saying that the State currently chooses to be a cultural and trade entity - not a political entity, per se. It also reserves to itself the right to become a political entity when necessary. Heth believed in strengthening the political reality of The State into something approaching the nation-state concept of, say, the Empire or the Federation. The Caldari people decided to repudiate that policy and now The State is back to a collection of Corporate States rather than a single monolithic entity.

The Republic (who are more accurately referred to as The Tribes, really) made a similar decision to break down centralised control in favour of more regional autonomy for Tribally owned areas of space. It's a great idea and I salute their vision - almost any Government can work to centralise more and more authority to itself, but few governments manage to decentralise without a violent revolt.

As a metaphysical concept The State is served by competition between the Corporations. The great 'Marketplace of Ideas' says that Lai Dai's wonderful new advance will result in a short-term boost of influence for that Corporation as it trades its research advantage in for material strength, political concessions, resources, traded technology and so forth. Lai Dai is strengthened WITHIN the State and assumes more decision making power. The other Corporations get the benefit of the new advance and The State as a whole benefits - from the increase in technology, from the increase in influence of a Corp that has proven itself superior, from the humbling of those who have rested on their laurels. In all ways. But only because Lai Dai is FREE to compete completely.

Now, I do get it. From the outside we look like a completely centralised, nationalistic nation-state. But you only have to dip a toe in the State, break the surface tension, and experience the reality of operating here.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.