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NPE and NPC Corp Restructure:

First post
Author
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#21 - 2015-10-13 16:33:07 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

The exodus that would follow from NPC corps, pending my proposal, would nigh explosively re-invigorate the community and systemically, exponentially, create more dynamic content as thousands upon thousands of characters (and players) flood to existing corps or form their own. Both during the transition period, and in perpetuity therafter.




You really expect player who stayed in NPC corp for the wardec immunity would not just form 1 man corps thus generating content for no-one and adding nothing to the community?

pretty much. besides they pay 11% tax to be in an NPC corp and pretty much get nothing for it. Plus imo wardec game play is some of the worst eve has to offer. trade hub/route camps woop de freaking doo! the levels of risk aversion on both sides are Shocked

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Carrie-Anne Moss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-10-13 16:34:26 UTC
Freya Sertan wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

You are missing the issues here.


No. You're moving your goalposts in order to avoid dissenting opinions.

"What matters, is how far the protection and incubation of new players extends."

This is also inherently wrong; there is NO protection/incubation for new players as it stands. There is no reason to ever HAVE protection/incubation for new players.

Um i have recieved many warnings/temp bans over the past 5 years for griefing/scamming/baiting/ganking/dueling/abusing/threatening/and just generally harrassing noobs un rookiezones.

Id call that "prptection"
Salvos Rhoska
#23 - 2015-10-13 16:34:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Freya Sertan wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

You are missing the issues here.


No. You're moving your goalposts in order to avoid dissenting opinions.

"What matters, is how far the protection and incubation of new players extends."

This is also inherently wrong; there is NO protection/incubation for new players as it stands. There is no reason to ever HAVE protection/incubation for new players.


You are the one who tried to move the goalposts on what durstion of gametime constitutes a "new" player.

You are also the one who is inherently wrong, because new players, and old, are both offered protection and incubation, in perpetuity, indefinately and without reproach, due to NPC corp wardec immunity.

You arent making any sense.


How long do you, yourself, consider a player as "new".
This is not a rhetorical question.
I expect a specific figure, since you claim my specific figure of 30 days is not representative in your opinion.

I dont care if its 30, 60 or 90. Makes no difference. Why? Because only new characters can exist in the wardec immune NPE corp that I propose. You cant default back into it when you are a 10yr vet.
Paranoid Loyd
#24 - 2015-10-13 16:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I expect a specific figure, since you claim my specific figure of 30 days is not representative in your opinion.
And this is exactly why your premise is flawed, everyone's number is different.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Salvos Rhoska
#25 - 2015-10-13 16:50:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I expect a specific figure, since you claim my specific figure of 30 days is not representative in your opinion.
And this is exactly why you premise is flawed, everyone's number is different.

The number is irrelevant.

Read post above and my proposal overall.

Makes no difference to me, or the proposal, if players are classified as "new" for 30, 60 or 90 days, for purposes of remaining in the wardec immune NPE Corp.

Also, you have ignored my post in response to you earlier, here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6095778#post6095778

Those are not rhetorical questions.
Josef Djugashvilis
#26 - 2015-10-13 16:51:58 UTC
I am far, far too sensible to join any player corp that would have me.

This is not a signature.

Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-10-13 16:52:43 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I am far, far too sensible to join any player corp that would have me.


why?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2015-10-13 16:52:47 UTC
Okay, i am going to try to break down the logic.

1. War dec immunity from npc corp breeds risk adverse play.
2. New players should be in an npc corp during rookie time to figure out eve

The first flaw is the ideology people are only in NPC corp to hide from war decs. Not necessarily a bad thing? As I say time and time again, a paying carebear does not detract from eve. It injects that low grade items, isk and materials so high risk and high sp players do not have to.

Other players are people like myself. I havent found a new corp to join, and am in no rush. If I meet up with like minded players in my tz, then maybe. So alternative is I am either under npc war dec or I am forced to make a solo corp? The latter results in me making people mad on the forums or my solo in pirate space and now once more under perma war dec because of the black and white dec mechanics. What reason would I have to play? To play I am forced ti join personalities I dont like?

So all that, first war decs would need to be fixed. This would resolve both those issues. If war declarations are localized instead of global, then both situations resolve. Players can move elsewhere in highsec if war dec, and this means new players can still meet up and form rookie corps.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Paranoid Loyd
#29 - 2015-10-13 16:52:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
The number is irrelevant.
The number is 100% relevant. You are assigning a time limit in which someone is forced to do something.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Salvos Rhoska
#30 - 2015-10-13 16:54:46 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I am far, far too sensible to join any player corp that would have me.


What would you do, if the changes I propose are enacted?

Would you leave EVE? Form your own corp? AWOX yourself into a corp that really shouldnt want you?
Remain in the NPC corp?
Salvos Rhoska
#31 - 2015-10-13 16:57:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
The number is irrelevant.
The number is 100% relevant. You are assigning a time limit in which someone is forced to do something.


-If the "number is 100% relevant", then say what is the correct number (IN YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION) for considering a character/player as "new".

-Nobody is forced to do anything in my proposal.

Also, you have ignored my post in response to you earlier, here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6095778#post6095778
Josef Djugashvilis
#32 - 2015-10-13 16:57:53 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I am far, far too sensible to join any player corp that would have me.


why?


I have no desire whatsoever to give a player corp my API details.

I play the game to suit myself and not the whim of some egotistical CEO.

If I wanted to be told what to do by other players, I would just spend more time in my rl job.

I respect player corps that want to achieve something in the game and fully accept that team-work should and does have benefits, but it is just not for me.

Solo all the way Smile

This is not a signature.

Paranoid Loyd
#33 - 2015-10-13 17:03:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Nobody is forced to do anything in my proposal.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
After that 30 days, the character is relegated to their default NPC corp (as in character generation) (which is wardecable)
You are proposing people are forced to change corps. I see no choice in this relegation.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Also, you have ignored my post in response to you earlier, here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6095778#post6095778 
Freya responded as I would have, I don't need to repeat what she said.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Salvos Rhoska
#34 - 2015-10-13 17:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Markus Reese wrote:
The first flaw is the ideology people are only in NPC corp to hide from war decs


Its not an ideology.

Its a pragmatic, rational deduction.

The only thing that defines an NPC corp from a player one, on a mechanics level, is wardec immunity.

It could be said that the inability to populate director/CEO positions in NPC corps, or to handle the corps various integral functions and options, is a mechanical differrence.

But that would be false.

The fact that players cannot administer the functions of an NPC corp, are not relevant to the artificial wardec immunity these NPC corps, uniquely, enjoy.

Its an NPC corp, which means its equivalent director/CEO positions, and various functions, are handled by NPCs, rather than players. See what I mean?

But ADDITIONALLY to that, its members are immune to wardec, in a way no other corp is.

Do you see the difference?

Its a fallacy to argue that the fact players cannot administer functions in NPC corps, is somehow compensated for by a magical wardec immunity, as different from player corps in which that same administration and functions are fulfilled by players, WITHOUT wardec immunity.

No. It just means that, in terms of the game, those functions are handled by NPCs, because ITS AN NPC CORP.
In no way does that justify nor validate wardec immunity

The wardec immunity element is superficial, artificial and irrationally additive.

NPC corps are run by NPCs.
Player corps are run by players.
Why then, do NPC corps have wardec immunity, whereas player corps do not?
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#35 - 2015-10-13 17:17:44 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

The exodus that would follow from NPC corps, pending my proposal, would nigh explosively re-invigorate the community and systemically, exponentially, create more dynamic content as thousands upon thousands of characters (and players) flood to existing corps or form their own. Both during the transition period, and in perpetuity therafter.



This makes the assumption that the exodus is to another corp, and not another game entirely.

People stay in NPC corps because they like that style of play. Anytime any style of play is removed, some fraction of those who enjoy that style will leave the game.



Yes, you are correct.

That is a degree of assumption on my part in the proposal.

However, insofar as what constitutes "that style of play" as which defines the current status quo from what my proposal would enact, boils down to one single thing:

-Wardec immunity.

I dont know how important and deciding a factor that is to what number of current NPC corp characters/players.
I cant answer that. If anyone else can, Id love to hear it.



Nonetheless, there are some mitigating factors that may take some of the edge off the discomfort my proposal would cause these particular players/characters, hopefully sufficiently and atleast significantly, 2 of which are in and of themselves a result of the proposal itself:

1) If your small (1-whatever) corp is wardecced, you can simply form a new corp.

Its not expensive, and the logistics are not a big hurdle for a small corp with basically only one players alts in it anyways (meaning no complication with dealing with other players).

2) I anticipate (rationally I think), that hundreds if not thousands of small 1 player corps will result from my proposed changes.
The sum effect of this, is similar to a shark hunting in a school of fish. Though each individual fish is a potential target, for the effort involved (in wardecing), there are just so goddam many of them, that the rest of the school remains uneaten, while the unlucky/weakest are eaten. It would be simply impractical and inordinately expensive to wardec them all, or even a significant portion of them, just to get at 1 character.

3) In the longer run (and perhaps even immediately after my proposed change) I am hoping that my proposal may also result in completely new, potentially quite enormous, HS player corps and potentially even alliances. Small, private, operators could join them, for collective security, mutual profits and shared interests. There is a real potential here for huge and significantly powerful HS corps/alliances to form in the aftermath of the exodus from NPC corps. Wardecing them might not be nearly as simple a concern therafter.


If people can avoid wars despite not being in an NPC corp, why get rid of them? Is it add inconvenience to game play? Whats the point of having players create corp after corp? Are you saying having thousands of abandoned corps makes for dynamic play?

Joining a large corp or alliance gets you the exact opposite of security. You just become a big target. The idea that "You can mine or mission is safety, during war, if you are in a large corp" is just wrong. When in war, you either undock to fight the war, or you stay docked, or you jump out of corp.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

Salvos Rhoska
#36 - 2015-10-13 17:20:08 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Nobody is forced to do anything in my proposal.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
After that 30 days, the character is relegated to their default NPC corp (as in character generation) (which is wardecable)
You are proposing people are forced to change corps. I see no choice in this relegation.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Also, you have ignored my post in response to you earlier, here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6095778#post6095778 
Freya responded as I would have, I don't need to repeat what she said.


1) My proposal doesnt force anyone to change corps. They can stay in the NPC corp if they so wish.

2) I didnt ask Freya. I asked you. She didnt answer my questions to YOU, because they were never addressed to her.
Or are you saying you are also Freya?
Is it an alien concept to you, thatbif you expect people to answer your questions, its normal and rrasonable to expect you to also answer theur questions to you, in return?
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#37 - 2015-10-13 17:20:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Otso Bakarti
Yet another attempt to force PvE-ers into the exceedingly boring and blindly repetitive activity of PvP.

Come on y'all. It's so patently obvious by now, why do you keep TRYING????

-3 for lack of originality on an exponential scale.

PS I have a great idea. It suddenly hit me! Go find a PvP game! You won't be missed!! Bye! Bye!

*waves good-bye with GREAT enthusiasm*

There just isn't anything that can be said!

Salvos Rhoska
#38 - 2015-10-13 17:31:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Vincent Athena wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

The exodus that would follow from NPC corps, pending my proposal, would nigh explosively re-invigorate the community and systemically, exponentially, create more dynamic content as thousands upon thousands of characters (and players) flood to existing corps or form their own. Both during the transition period, and in perpetuity therafter.



This makes the assumption that the exodus is to another corp, and not another game entirely.

People stay in NPC corps because they like that style of play. Anytime any style of play is removed, some fraction of those who enjoy that style will leave the game.



Yes, you are correct.

That is a degree of assumption on my part in the proposal.

However, insofar as what constitutes "that style of play" as which defines the current status quo from what my proposal would enact, boils down to one single thing:

-Wardec immunity.

I dont know how important and deciding a factor that is to what number of current NPC corp characters/players.
I cant answer that. If anyone else can, Id love to hear it.



Nonetheless, there are some mitigating factors that may take some of the edge off the discomfort my proposal would cause these particular players/characters, hopefully sufficiently and atleast significantly, 2 of which are in and of themselves a result of the proposal itself:

1) If your small (1-whatever) corp is wardecced, you can simply form a new corp.

Its not expensive, and the logistics are not a big hurdle for a small corp with basically only one players alts in it anyways (meaning no complication with dealing with other players).

2) I anticipate (rationally I think), that hundreds if not thousands of small 1 player corps will result from my proposed changes.
The sum effect of this, is similar to a shark hunting in a school of fish. Though each individual fish is a potential target, for the effort involved (in wardecing), there are just so goddam many of them, that the rest of the school remains uneaten, while the unlucky/weakest are eaten. It would be simply impractical and inordinately expensive to wardec them all, or even a significant portion of them, just to get at 1 character.

3) In the longer run (and perhaps even immediately after my proposed change) I am hoping that my proposal may also result in completely new, potentially quite enormous, HS player corps and potentially even alliances. Small, private, operators could join them, for collective security, mutual profits and shared interests. There is a real potential here for huge and significantly powerful HS corps/alliances to form in the aftermath of the exodus from NPC corps. Wardecing them might not be nearly as simple a concern therafter.


If people can avoid wars despite not being in an NPC corp, why get rid of them? Is it add inconvenience to game play? Whats the point of having players create corp after corp? Are you saying having thousands of abandoned corps makes for dynamic play?

Joining a large corp or alliance gets you the exact opposite of security. You just become a big target. The idea that "You can mine or mission is safety, during war, if you are in a large corp" is just wrong. When in war, you either undock to fight the war, or you stay docked, or you jump out of corp.


A) Because though they can avoid the wardec, they are not immune to it. Its not to add inconveniencr, its to add player dynamics to the sandbox, beyond the flat artificial shield NPC corps currently offer. This is an asinine question, considering the readily apparent results of what I propose. You contradict yourself in this sense.

Your premise is that it SHOULD be possible to be immune to wardecs.
How do you justify that?

I ask you this also, what do you think would happen if NPC corps were rendered wardeccable?
Just as a theoretical excercise (as allof this is). Seriously, what do you think would result, concretely, from that?

B) Joining a large corp or alliance has worked everywhere else, and throughout the history of EVE as a mediator against aggression. You accused me of my premise being wrong. I answered that. Now I put to you, that your premise here is wrong. How is being a member of a large organisation NOT conducive to greater security, intel and community? How is a LARGER organisation more vulnerable, in what ways, than a small one?
Freya Sertan
Doomheim
#39 - 2015-10-13 17:33:26 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

2) I didnt ask Freya. I asked you. She didnt answer my questions to YOU, because they were never addressed to her.
Or are you saying you are also Freya?
Is it an alien concept to you, thatbif you expect people to answer your questions, its normal and rrasonable to expect you to also answer theur questions to you, in return?


...are you insane? He told you he would have answered in the exact same way I did yet that doesn't prove to you that he would answer in the same way?

Man. You need a reboot or something. You accuse ME of making no sense? Yikes.

New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.

Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.

Paranoid Loyd
#40 - 2015-10-13 17:40:02 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Is it an alien concept to you, thatbif you expect people to answer your questions, its normal and rrasonable to expect you to also answer theur questions to you, in return?
Sure, except I didn't ask you any questions. I pointed out an obvious flaw in your troll.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!