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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Ship models / Realism / Physics] maneuvering thrusters, collisions

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Razvan Stefan
World Industries Science and Research
#1 - 2015-10-12 17:50:36 UTC
Hi,

I don't think I'm the first one with this idea but since I cannot find the other topics... well.

One of the big things we don't have right now in EVE is a realistic way to turn the ships around or keep objects in range.

The ships behave unnatural when turning, keeping objects in range, colliding etc.

I know this is tons of programing and a huge topic but feels like this needs some attention.

For example, editing the ship models to have maneuvering thrusters fire whenever they turn would greatly add to the realism.

Also keeping a object in range, if ship facing the object instead of suddenly turning in a strange matter it could slowly fire maneuvering thrusters and keep the object in range for slow speeds even moving in reverse.

Colliding with objects / ships / etc .. some damage depending on speed / mass could not hurt, this will add to PVP tactics a lot, would bring in front colorable structures rocks, dead ships etc, those things can decorate EVE a lot and change it totally, add a use to them, right now the are pretty much useless.

Collisions and damage is a sensitive topic I know .. since it brings up kamikaze tactics but still ... a frigate bumping a titan is not so fun either.

Lots to say, hope I sparked some interest in this.

Wish you the best!

Cheers,
Razvan
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#2 - 2015-10-12 18:20:54 UTC
Cool ideas. With the upcoming modeling of space dirt and grime, perhaps collisions could accelerate dirt and rust gathering?

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Razvan Stefan
World Industries Science and Research
#3 - 2015-10-12 18:46:28 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Cool ideas. With the upcoming modeling of space dirt and grime, perhaps collisions could accelerate dirt and rust gathering?


Yes, in belts small projectile objects collide with the shields / armors generate dirt and stuff. My hulk / mining ships are just so clean.. there is no such thing as a clean miner :-)

There are lots of things to be done to resurrect the game.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#4 - 2015-10-12 18:57:56 UTC
Collisions doing damage is simply impossible to manage. A: We don't have that degree of fine flight control in EVE to make it sensible.
B: Free ganking. Park a freighter on the undock of Jita, put reps on it, watch everyone exiting the station at full speed take large damage hitting it. Anyone without sufficient buffer tank then pops, LOOT!
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-10-12 19:40:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmer Jones
I know you want nice cosmetic effects for movement and interaction, but collision will likely not be even considered until the spaghetti code is deciphered, and they get python working on servers with multiple hampsters on every wheel( iirc there is only one hampster per wheel.

Much can be hand waved,for eg turning could be managed with gyroscopes, collision and flight physics are the result of warp engines and capsuleer-proof failsafes. Thing is people would have to read, instead of having visual effects explaining everything.

I should have just done the faster thing(I'll just leave these here):

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=306190

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=413412

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2423000

Ed shoot, bad links, brb with proper ones.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2015-10-12 20:49:17 UTC
While I support things like firing arcs, more quasirealistic physics, and section damage systems(gods id murder to have SOTS2 HP system in eve) I have to argue a few points..

First understand that a ship in eve has no representation to the server other than a single point with a vector. If you want to see what this means.. get a battleship, a friend, and position the battleship so it is facing away from a warpable object with zero velocity. Start to warp battleship + web battleship. Watch the battleship warp backwards. This works even better on titans.

This brings us to the first point..
To add what you want.. you have to add way more information to the dot.
This opens a floodgate of "well since i did this.. I might as well do this" changes. Not a bad thing mind you just considerably more complex with more baggage than you anticipated.

The current "manually flying mode" is more "follow the ball" than actual flight. All your ship is really doing is chasing its dot. This is why you see weird flight mechanics sometimes.

To make actual flight you need to define what the ship is size wise(no more simple spheres for collision) and apply a permanent "front" and "back". Currently your ship actually has none of this. It doesn't even have a front unless its in motion and even then it doesn't have a front because its a dot. Dots don't have volume.

Once you have given the ship volume and dimensions and a collision system closer representing the shape of the hull then you have to now buff up the flight mode by allowing multiple mass vectors. Remember we want to go from ball following to pushing the "mass"(ie ship) around. Why pushing do you ask? Well a ball following method works when the object has no volume and is far easier to calculate.. you literally instruct an object to chase coordinates. This is akin to a graph drawing a line in 3d space. By pushing you allow for "swinging turns" and "cutting thrust while coasting". All the fun wonderful tricks of real flight.

and now.. the second point...
Once youve done all that work and have reworked collision spheres/cubes and a reworked collision system that considers mass and acceleration then you might as well abuse the new system and make firing arcs a thing.. which takes balance and ship design and trashes it for many hulls.

TLDR: It would be gloriously awesome.. but more work than it seems. I bet money its on CCPs "to consider" board but balance concerns and how "real" to push it along with technology limitations of the server(since you just went from volumeless dot to defined object.. much more information to calculate) will probably keep it a few years away.

Side note though.. I would seriously sacrifice all of TEST, most of highsec, and at least a quarter of KF snoobies to have Sword of the Stars 2 damage system... Being able to roll to spread damage out and time that roll to my best firing arcs alpha strike would be in every conceivable way... Glorious.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#7 - 2015-10-12 20:56:14 UTC
Razvan Stefan wrote:
Colliding with objects / ships / etc .. some damage depending on speed / mass could not hurt, this will add to PVP tactics a lot, would bring in front colorable structures rocks, dead ships etc, those things can decorate EVE a lot and change it totally, add a use to them, right now the are pretty much useless.

Oh yes please. The endless tears from bumpers would be priceless...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#8 - 2015-10-12 21:29:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Do Little
If they're going to that much effort, might as well toss in line of sight for weapons - so you can actually hide behind some of those things decorating Eve!
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2015-10-12 23:16:55 UTC
Traffic clutter on station undocks is being addressed with the citadel system I think (I see multiple undock bays from those models). One could say the groundwork is slowly being laid to allow some sort of improved collision mechanic in the future, though its obviously not the highest priority. I'm sure we could put our heads together and figure ways around the problems with damaging collisions when the time comes.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#10 - 2015-10-13 03:43:40 UTC
Nafensoriel wrote:


and now.. the second point...
Once youve done all that work and have reworked collision spheres/cubes and a reworked collision system that considers mass and acceleration then you might as well abuse the new system and make firing arcs a thing.. which takes balance and ship design and trashes it for many hulls.

Being able to roll to spread damage out and time that roll to my best firing arcs alpha strike would be in every conceivable way... Glorious.



How would this new collision box and volumized objects precipitate or vindicate firing arcs exactly?

All of the weapons currently rotate 360 degress to fire at whatever angle they need to.
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2015-10-13 04:52:23 UTC
Honestly it would be a matter of refinement.. Not every ship has an actual and functional true 360 degree arc of fire for 8 weapons at once. The hyperion is a great example. It has a blind spot to over 50% of its turrets both "top" and "bottom". Technically you could "space magic" this and ignore it allowing weapons to fire thru the hull but since you already defined the size and volume of the ship you might as well affix turrets to the hull and then define their fire arcs. Without hull redesign though this leaves blindspots.. could be good could be bad.. depends on where you went with it.

A collision system also helps identify what is left, right, up, down, etc. One box/sphere is enough to cover the hull sure but it doesn't exactly give depth since the model shape now has exactly no purpose other than eye candy and anchor points.

Hypothetically if you took a more detailed route you could setup a hyperion to have wide fire arcs and high maneuverability(given its engine design allows 4 point vectoring) but this would be traded with its relatively thin profile thus thin armor. While a dominix would have considerably reduced fire arcs thanks to its left/right turret placement and relatively low maneuverability due to shape/engine placement yet its extra mass suggests higher armor and hull to chew before destruction.

Easiest thing to do though would be to just toss one box tighter to the hull and call it space magic though.. just wouldn't look the prettiest or be the coolest system.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2015-10-13 06:08:56 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Collisions doing damage is simply impossible to manage. A: We don't have that degree of fine flight control in EVE to make it sensible.
B: Free ganking. Park a freighter on the undock of Jita, put reps on it, watch everyone exiting the station at full speed take large damage hitting it. Anyone without sufficient buffer tank then pops, LOOT!



you are invulnerable at unlocking, until you take action or until it expires, no need to change that.

and stations might want to clear their parameters so no hanging around the station for to long, nothing that can't be remedied.

I can see ramming ships become part of Eve :)
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2015-10-13 12:03:41 UTC
Please remember you are in a bubble that acts as though you were in a fluid not a vacuum

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble