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So... how would you nerf T3's ?

Author
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#121 - 2015-10-07 16:12:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
edit: I should have a better attitude towards people.

Just check out 10mn fits and ultrathrasher fits, those are the real culprits. When you can comfortably go solo against cruiser gangs, something is off.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#122 - 2015-10-08 16:09:33 UTC
One of the problems with the Proteus and it's stupid levels of tank is the ability to fit 2 1600 plates. That's way too much PG to work with and still have room for a full rack of guns. And it still even has the ability to pick up the ewar bonus subsystem. 3 rigs doesn't exactly help the problem either. HACs can only fit 2, and medium tech 2 trimarks aren't even that expensive anymore.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2015-10-10 17:59:40 UTC
Everybody and their dog runs autocannon svipuls with dual MSE's or an MSE + adaptive invuln; if you drop points of them and have dedicated tackle they have almost the same tank as a T1 cruiser with equivalent DPS, much greater mobility and 70m sig, they're also only slightly more expensive with insurance.

Did you know that a Svipul with an adaptive invuln or resist rigs with links can get an 80% omni tank? That's absolutely pants on head crazy. With 70m sig on a shield tank and 500 DPS heated. "Solo" svipul with proper resist rigs, links and a cap boosted C-type can eat cruisers all day.

Not gonna lie the ship is fun as all hell but even compared to the other T3D's it's nuts and it renders AF's even more useless. ***** on alot of cruiser and BC doctrines even.
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2015-10-11 09:52:24 UTC
Valacus wrote:
One of the problems with the Proteus and it's stupid levels of tank is the ability to fit 2 1600 plates.



Dude please, who in **** does that.


If you go for strawmen, at least pick a decent one
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#125 - 2015-10-11 11:32:29 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
Valacus wrote:
One of the problems with the Proteus and it's stupid levels of tank is the ability to fit 2 1600 plates.



Dude please, who in **** does that.


If you go for strawmen, at least pick a decent one


Our point proteus for domi fleet fits two T2 1600s.
Valkin Mordirc
#126 - 2015-10-11 12:02:45 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Everybody and their dog runs autocannon svipuls with dual MSE's or an MSE + adaptive invuln; if you drop points of them and have dedicated tackle they have almost the same tank as a T1 cruiser with equivalent DPS, much greater mobility and 70m sig, they're also only slightly more expensive with insurance.

Did you know that a Svipul with an adaptive invuln or resist rigs with links can get an 80% omni tank? That's absolutely pants on head crazy. With 70m sig on a shield tank and 500 DPS heated. "Solo" svipul with proper resist rigs, links and a cap boosted C-type can eat cruisers all day.

Not gonna lie the ship is fun as all hell but even compared to the other T3D's it's nuts and it renders AF's even more useless. ***** on alot of cruiser and BC doctrines even.



Yeah, But the proteus also has a **** ton of weaknesses as well. It's cap is bad, It may get the tank of a battleship but it's just as fast as one. It's very limited in what it can do as a T3 making it very predictable in what you're fighting.



However it IS very strong T3 in it's predictable roles.

Quote:
Dude please, who in **** does that.


If you go for strawmen, at least pick a decent one


A Lot of Highsec Undock Warriors use Brick tanked Proteus' it was a popular fit in Marmite for a while.

#DeleteTheWeak
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#127 - 2015-10-11 12:50:42 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
i like assault frigs and i hate t3d's, dont think they thought about assault frigs when they released t3d's, my answer to nerfing t3d's is either remove them or buff assault frigs so they can compete


I'd buff AF's before nerfing T3Ds simply because I like both but I agree 100% with your assessment... AFs are in a bad place but T3Ds are fun as F to fly.
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#128 - 2015-10-11 12:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
Arla Sarain wrote:
There need to be more way that the enemy can exploit a T3Ds weakness in particular modes.

Without the modes they're just destroyers with relatively simple stats. But with them they surpass other ships at the role. Speed mode makes T3Ds faster than the majority of frigs. Defense mode makes them on par with cruisers. You can get some other frigs with similar tank but it takes a lot more bling with less turnover (22k EHP wolves exist, but not worth it when 22k +300HP/s svipuls do too for a cheaper price tag and the magical insurance they get).

For starters, the insurance needs to either go, or other ships need a similar trait. It's just too cheap to fly T3Ds. That's not to say that the insurance has no merit - it encourages you to welp yourself against unfavourable odds for the promised cost of a T2 frig but with the strength of a cruiser with frigate sized sigs and such. But that's not something that should be attached to T3Ds.

Base stats could be weaker. So that in a mode it's biased heavily to a particular role whilst being worse than average of the same size at other roles. And forcing a pilot to switch modes becomes a fighting strategy.

Hecate is the most balanced but shouldn't be the template for the rest. Having sentinels be the primary counter to this class is no better than it is now.




The solution to a T3D is scram+neut+web. Hecate is the most balanced?? I dunno, I'd say Confessor is more balanced than the Hecate... I'm confident they'll all settle nicely over time but I'm more concerned about the AF meta and where that's headed in the meantime.

Also, about T3 cruisers... I think they'll be the go-to until Battleship warpspeed is buffed.
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#129 - 2015-10-11 13:00:34 UTC
Valacus wrote:
One of the problems with the Proteus and it's stupid levels of tank is the ability to fit 2 1600 plates. That's way too much PG to work with and still have room for a full rack of guns. And it still even has the ability to pick up the ewar bonus subsystem. 3 rigs doesn't exactly help the problem either. HACs can only fit 2, and medium tech 2 trimarks aren't even that expensive anymore.


Considering the amount of financial investment that it takes to optimize a Proteus, and the risk associated with losing that fit/hull/skill, I'd say it's in a good place. Regardless of buffs or nerfs players will shift the meta to new mins/maxes. The Proteus is strong across the board but it has serious limitations with power projection. Just my $0.02 YMMV.
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#130 - 2015-10-11 13:01:54 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
edit: I should have a better attitude towards people.

Just check out 10mn fits and ultrathrasher fits, those are the real culprits. When you can comfortably go solo against cruiser gangs, something is off.


Not necessarily... what's the cruiser fleet comp?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#131 - 2015-10-11 13:08:55 UTC
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:


I'd buff AF's before nerfing T3Ds simply because I like both but I agree 100% with your assessment... AFs are in a bad place but T3Ds are fun as F to fly.


AF were in a good place before t3d showed up.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#132 - 2015-10-12 03:43:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Desideratus
baltec1 wrote:
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:


I'd buff AF's before nerfing T3Ds simply because I like both but I agree 100% with your assessment... AFs are in a bad place but T3Ds are fun as F to fly.


AF were in a good place before t3d showed up.

That's what I think as well, but some people say otherwise. Well, pirate frig rebalance and T1 frig rebalance also had something to do with it
Fornost Fornostsen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2015-10-12 08:46:10 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:


I'd buff AF's before nerfing T3Ds simply because I like both but I agree 100% with your assessment... AFs are in a bad place but T3Ds are fun as F to fly.


AF were in a good place before t3d showed up.

That's what I think as well, but some people say otherwise. Well, pirate frig rebalance and T1 frig rebalance also had something to do with it



Before the introduction of T3Ds, worms and garmurs, the whole frig/dessy meta was very good balanced (some ships were a little stronger than others, but the general balance was very good).
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#134 - 2015-10-13 16:34:44 UTC
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
Valacus wrote:
One of the problems with the Proteus and it's stupid levels of tank is the ability to fit 2 1600 plates. That's way too much PG to work with and still have room for a full rack of guns. And it still even has the ability to pick up the ewar bonus subsystem. 3 rigs doesn't exactly help the problem either. HACs can only fit 2, and medium tech 2 trimarks aren't even that expensive anymore.


Considering the amount of financial investment that it takes to optimize a Proteus, and the risk associated with losing that fit/hull/skill, I'd say it's in a good place. Regardless of buffs or nerfs players will shift the meta to new mins/maxes. The Proteus is strong across the board but it has serious limitations with power projection. Just my $0.02 YMMV.


It's high ISK, but low risk. They have a relatively small signature radius and guardians can keep you up virtually forever. Proteus gangs don't really anything, except maybe faction BS gangs, and those take just as much, if not more, ISK investment. I think the Proteus definitely needs a nerf, along with every T3D save the Jackdaw, which is garbage compared to the rest.
Garrett Osinov
Doomheim
#135 - 2015-10-13 17:31:50 UTC
Fornost Fornostsen wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:


I'd buff AF's before nerfing T3Ds simply because I like both but I agree 100% with your assessment... AFs are in a bad place but T3Ds are fun as F to fly.


AF were in a good place before t3d showed up.

That's what I think as well, but some people say otherwise. Well, pirate frig rebalance and T1 frig rebalance also had something to do with it



Before the introduction of T3Ds, worms and garmurs, the whole frig/dessy meta was very good balanced (some ships were a little stronger than others, but the general balance was very good).


Harpy is still good
Magnus Gryps
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#136 - 2015-10-13 20:34:51 UTC
Valacus wrote:
It's high ISK, but low risk. They have a relatively small signature radius and guardians can keep you up virtually forever. Proteus gangs don't really anything, except maybe faction BS gangs, and those take just as much, if not more, ISK investment. I think the Proteus definitely needs a nerf, along with every T3D save the Jackdaw, which is garbage compared to the rest.


According to zkillboard about 200 Proteuses were destroyed within the last week. So, yep, they're killable.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#137 - 2015-10-13 20:39:45 UTC
I would nerf Chromestriker, not poor defenceless T3s

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Fornost Fornostsen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2015-10-13 20:44:59 UTC
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Fornost Fornostsen wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:


I'd buff AF's before nerfing T3Ds simply because I like both but I agree 100% with your assessment... AFs are in a bad place but T3Ds are fun as F to fly.


AF were in a good place before t3d showed up.

That's what I think as well, but some people say otherwise. Well, pirate frig rebalance and T1 frig rebalance also had something to do with it



Before the introduction of T3Ds, worms and garmurs, the whole frig/dessy meta was very good balanced (some ships were a little stronger than others, but the general balance was very good).


Harpy is still good


Better than any of T3Ds?

That apart, before the whole meta was balanced
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#139 - 2015-10-14 05:14:51 UTC
Magnus Gryps wrote:
Valacus wrote:
It's high ISK, but low risk. They have a relatively small signature radius and guardians can keep you up virtually forever. Proteus gangs don't really anything, except maybe faction BS gangs, and those take just as much, if not more, ISK investment. I think the Proteus definitely needs a nerf, along with every T3D save the Jackdaw, which is garbage compared to the rest.


According to zkillboard about 200 Proteuses were destroyed within the last week. So, yep, they're killable.


That means absolutely nothing. They could have been 200 mission Proteuses. 200 PLEX Proteus. 200 badly fit PvP Proteus. Could have been destroyed by another Proteus fleet, which is very likely, or Machs. That doesn't make them balanced. Not by a long shot.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#140 - 2015-10-14 05:53:57 UTC
Don't nerf T3s, buff Battleships and Assault Frigates!

Although, a ~2s 'warm-up' timer on mode switching in T3Ds would remove their insta-warp ability and bring them back into line.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura