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Revamp Covert Ops Frigates
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Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-10-08 18:52:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Riko
Helios:
Gallente Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage
10% bonus to Scout Drone thermal damage

Buzzard:
Caldari Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to kinetic Light Missile and Rocket damage
5% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket Launcher rate of fire

Anathema:
Amarr Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Rocket damage
5% reduction in capacitor recharge time

Cheetah:
Minmatar Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret damage
10% bonus to Small Projectile Turret optimal range

So out of all of these skills, the only one that seems genuinely useful is the Anathema's bonus to capacitor recharge time. Which doesn't really have anything to do with it's Covops specialisation, it's just nicer than most of the rubbish the other ships get for trait bonuses.

The Helios cannot fit any turrets when it has a cloak and probe launcher. It has the space/bandwidth for a single light drone.

The Buzzard can actually fit a missile launcher along with its cloak and probe launcher, but a single launcher is rather pitiful.

The Anathema, again gets a miniscule bonus to rocket damage.

The Cheetah is a similar story, benefiting very little.

Given that these are COVOP ships, in my opinion they should have absolutely no combat capabilities what so ever. I believe that their purpose should be as reconnaissance boats. That is all they are ever used for, their trait bonuses should reflect that. If someone wants to go hunting other exploration frigates, they will hop into an Astero. These ships in my opinion should be specifically designed, with actual trait bonuses, to aid their ability to act as recons in fleet warfare.

As things stand the bonuses they receive don't really benefit the ships at all, given they are mainly used for scouting, probing, and providing warp in points. It would be great if the trait bonuses gave each hull a more unique character, here is a list of suggestions:
-5% additional warp speed per level.
-5% quicker scan time per level
-7.5% bonus to base speed when cloaked
-10% reduction in decloaking distance

These are just off the top of my head, I'm sure others can come up with much more appropriate ones, but you can clearly see how those bonuses would benefit the covop ship class much more than the generic "racial damage type" bonuses they currently get. I'd love to hear what other people think on the matter.

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Nyalnara
Marauder Initiative
#2 - 2015-10-08 19:18:05 UTC
Indeed, the current bonus are utter crap. But a revamp has already been asked a lot of time, and we've seen nothing so far.

I do agree with that the current bonus are useless, but the proposed ones may require tweaking, especially the "10% reduction in decloaking distance" which is imho way too big.
Also, "7.5% bonus to base speed when cloaked" is not a good thing, because you would need to accelerate more to enter warp while cloacked, which mean you'd be easier to catch.

French half-noob.

Non, je ne suis pas gentil.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
Deaf and Daft
#3 - 2015-10-08 21:49:11 UTC
how about bonus for cargo/ship scanner?

or bonus to dscan range?
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-10-08 22:09:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Riko
Nyalnara wrote:
Indeed, the current bonus are utter crap. But a revamp has already been asked a lot of time, and we've seen nothing so far.

I do agree with that the current bonus are useless, but the proposed ones may require tweaking, especially the "10% reduction in decloaking distance" which is imho way too big.
Also, "7.5% bonus to base speed when cloaked" is not a good thing, because you would need to accelerate more to enter warp while cloacked, which mean you'd be easier to catch.



1. At level 5 Covops, your cloaking distance would be 1km instead of 2km. Given these are small covert ships I don't think that's too OP.
2. No it wouldn't. Warp speed has nothing to do with how much you need to accelerate to enter warp. To enter warp you need to be travelling 75%+ of your base speed and aligned within 5% angle of the destination. That is it.

I'll accept the ones I proposed aren't great and would need tweaking, but at least give us something better than what we currently have.

I would much rather CCP fix the current ships rather than throwing another rubbish destroyer with a gimmicky game mechanic that no one wants in. We are not toddlers with a short attention span CCP, FIX THE BROKEN SHIPS. The current Frigate and destroyer meta is completely broken to the core. AF are almost COMPLETELY redundant. I would much rather see them brought back into the game than another destroyer that will either be stupidly OP or so useless that it's worthless.

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Arla Sarain
#5 - 2015-10-08 22:39:25 UTC
Quicker scan time is about the only useful thing.

Warp speed isn't constant. It takes a while to accelerate, and on frig level, whilst the difference between a Ceptor/Covops and other frigs is noticeable, it's not a deciding factor on short system warps since the time spent at 8AU/s is pretty short.

Cloaked speed usefulness is fictional at best. If you are within 10km of your target, that alone is an acceptable fleet warp in. If you are dramatically further than that, you screwed up. Your 600m/s won't be fast enough to cover any distance worth mentioning. And you won't "positioning behind enemy fleets" or chasing anyone down when everyone else is propmodding at no less than 1km/s, especially in the modern kitey meta.

Decloak distance seems entirely aimed at sites.

As far as cov-ops combat bonuses - I like having the option. To most of you nullsec T3Cs fleet tryhards some odd 130 DPS is laughable, but that's what can be pulled out of a Buzzard whilst also having perfect range control, along with a MASB. And I might not have personally used that in any serious fight, but this guy has. The only oddity to me is this option is only practical on the Buzzard and Helios.

I'd prefer to see the upcoming scanning changes before securing the hull to a "never decloak" gameplay pillar - it just screams alt exclusive role.
Civ Kado
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2015-10-08 22:41:00 UTC
I would like for them to be more viable as explorer killers, same way that the astero works.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-10-08 22:51:51 UTC
Civ Kado wrote:
I would like for them to be more viable as explorer killers, same way that the astero works.



why do you need 4 more Asteros?

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#8 - 2015-10-08 23:07:17 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Civ Kado wrote:
I would like for them to be more viable as explorer killers, same way that the astero works.



why do you need 4 more Asteros?


The wish here is more for 4 ships who aren't the Astero. Because drones all the time is boring. Besides, with the Astero being the only armed exploration frigate, practically everyone would use it if it were just a little cheaper and the cov-ops would end up being unused and unloved.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2015-10-08 23:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
Owen Levanth wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Civ Kado wrote:
I would like for them to be more viable as explorer killers, same way that the astero works.



why do you need 4 more Asteros?


The wish here is more for 4 ships who aren't the Astero. Because drones all the time is boring. Besides, with the Astero being the only armed exploration frigate, practically everyone would use it if it were just a little cheaper and the cov-ops would end up being unused and unloved.


those lil ships shouldn't be both good scanning and combat, main role is scanning & those silly combat bonuses might be useful but with different slots layout

go fly T3 then or either GnosisRoll

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-10-08 23:23:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Riko
Arla Sarain wrote:
Quicker scan time is about the only useful thing.

Warp speed isn't constant. It takes a while to accelerate, and on frig level, whilst the difference between a Ceptor/Covops and other frigs is noticeable, it's not a deciding factor on short system warps since the time spent at 8AU/s is pretty short.

Cloaked speed usefulness is fictional at best. If you are within 10km of your target, that alone is an acceptable fleet warp in. If you are dramatically further than that, you screwed up. Your 600m/s won't be fast enough to cover any distance worth mentioning. And you won't "positioning behind enemy fleets" or chasing anyone down when everyone else is propmodding at no less than 1km/s, especially in the modern kitey meta.

Decloak distance seems entirely aimed at sites.

As far as cov-ops combat bonuses - I like having the option. To most of you nullsec T3Cs fleet tryhards some odd 130 DPS is laughable, but that's what can be pulled out of a Buzzard whilst also having perfect range control, along with a MASB. And I might not have personally used that in any serious fight, but this guy has. The only oddity to me is this option is only practical on the Buzzard and Helios.

I'd prefer to see the upcoming scanning changes before securing the hull to a "never decloak" gameplay pillar - it just screams alt exclusive role.


...

Like I said. The trait bonuses I suggested were just brief examples, and regardless of your dissemination they are still more relevant suggestions than minuscule racial damage bonuses.

If you want a combat viable cov-ops ship and you're not using an Astero then you are failing at EVE. Hard.

Edit: By all means if CCP intends for them to be combat viable, fine, but actually make them capable, rather than toothless astero bait.

Also just because playing as recon for a fleet isn't your preferred gameplay, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be viable for other players, or that it is exclusively for alts... I personally use my main plenty to fly a Helios and scout for my fleets. I enjoy it. You don't need to be racking up killmails to be playing EVE Roll

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#11 - 2015-10-09 08:17:47 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:


[stuff]...here is a list of suggestions:
-5% additional warp speed per level.
-5% quicker scan time per level
-7.5% bonus to base speed when cloaked
-10% reduction in decloaking distance

These are just off the top of my head, I'm sure others can come up with much more appropriate ones, but you can clearly see how those bonuses would benefit the covop ship class much more than the generic "racial damage type" bonuses they currently get. I'd love to hear what other people think on the matter.


I like -5% reduction in scan time but would have to be uniform
warp speed meh
cloaked speed - meh unless it's like 20% or more?
reduction in cloaking distance, I like
bonus for cargo/ship scanner not really supported
dscan range bonus would have to be a role bonus, not a ship skill bonus... or a uniform ship skill bonus....

also what about:
reduction in sig radius?


For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#12 - 2015-10-09 08:28:13 UTC
The ships work very well with the current bonuses. Don't fix what isn't broken. Asking for buffs to things the ships are already good at is just asking for CCP to have to nerf some other things to compensate for the changes.

And absolutely no to being able to cloak within 1000m of something. It is already easy enough to evade a hunter, adding more ways to do that is not needed.

Besides, you can do some fun things with a properly fit Covert Ops ship to a Stealth Bomber when he comes in to try to tackle you.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#13 - 2015-10-09 09:35:38 UTC
Nyalnara wrote:
Indeed, the current bonus are utter crap. But a revamp has already been asked a lot of time, and we've seen nothing so far.

You clearly have not fought against a Helios yet. They are small little beasts against the right targets.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-10-09 10:43:12 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
The ships work very well with the current bonuses. Don't fix what isn't broken. Asking for buffs to things the ships are already good at is just asking for CCP to have to nerf some other things to compensate for the changes.

And absolutely no to being able to cloak within 1000m of something. It is already easy enough to evade a hunter, adding more ways to do that is not needed.

Besides, you can do some fun things with a properly fit Covert Ops ship to a Stealth Bomber when he comes in to try to tackle you.


Did you not read any of the thread?
I'm not asking for a buff, I'm asking for Covops to be completely redesigned. Currently as cloaky combat vessels they are worthless, the astero is better in every way. I would much rather see the 4 Covops ships made into something different and unique than have 4 more astero.

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#15 - 2015-10-09 12:29:59 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:
Did you not read any of the thread?
I'm not asking for a buff, I'm asking for Covops to be completely redesigned. Currently as cloaky combat vessels they are worthless, the astero is better in every way. I would much rather see the 4 Covops ships made into something different and unique than have 4 more astero.


Yes.

Maybe we have different definitions of what a covert operation is? In my world a covert operation includes gathering intel while being undetected and your main "weapon" is your cloaking device.

The only reason to uncloak would be a gate, where you drop probes or don't, depending on your current mission.

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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#16 - 2015-10-09 14:49:05 UTC
They could start by either making each viable in its own niche, or finally bring up the bad covops to helios-level of performance. As it stands, it's the only covops that is really useful for scanning, the others either lack PG (buzzard, can barely fit an mwd without fitting mods) or a 5th mid for the fourth scanning mod or any actually decent range control fit (cheetah/anathema).

I've tried all for scanning/herotackling - and you either use a helios or you do something wrong. There should be some meaningful choice.
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#17 - 2015-10-10 02:23:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
I never understood the rocket bonus on the T2 Amarr Anathema. Why not lasers? If the goal is to make rockets useful somehow .. well you could make it a laser/rocket bonus.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

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Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2015-10-10 04:46:42 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
I never understood the rocket bonus on the T2 Amarr Anathema. Why not lasers? If the goal is to make rockets useful somehow .. well you could make it a laser/rocket bonus.


Hmm maybe cause it was built under the influence of Khaldari? Like any others Khanid ships?

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#19 - 2015-10-10 07:02:14 UTC
How about a fitting bonus for Cynos?

a PG/CPU reduction would be nice.

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kingduckling
The pie is a lie
#20 - 2015-10-10 12:00:18 UTC
agreed, could use a revamp but without hindering the astero's capabilities, since its the best explo frigate at contesting sites etc. Although slightly worse at everything else.
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