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The imbalance in this game comes down to this...

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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
#21 - 2012-01-03 18:14:12 UTC
You **** them in the marketplace, they **** you in space

If you're not taking advantage of people using your own areas of play, well then, the game isn't for you.

.... but the game is amazing for many "care-bear" type players who've yearned for a much more real virtual economy to play "railroad baron" or whatever on an pro-longed time scale...

... amazing... truly. If you want a game to be an industrialist or a market speculator etc and have 0 interest in pvp type action stuff.. this is entirely the game for you. ...entirely.

if you're looking for pve where you will never be shot at by an ultra powerful "evironment" feature who happens to be a player, wellthe game isn't for you..

but why would it matter if a npc shot you dead or a bunch of players?

or, do you want a game so predictable that you'll never get blown to hell randomly by a NPC in a way that makes all your PVE stuff more exciting , knowing that the posiblity of loss of hundreds of hours of game time is a real posiblity if you don't move your materials cautiously? If .. LIke a 18th century whaling boat owner, you don't build the loss of 1/5th your ships into your profit equation and know that they other 4 will more than pay for the one you lost ?

.
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#22 - 2012-01-03 20:29:31 UTC
Mining Rokh

/thread
Rory Orlenard
Eve Pilots Revolutionary Army
#23 - 2012-01-04 03:57:12 UTC
Ira Theos wrote:
Six years of Eve behind me. 100+ million SP. Been around the block through small Corps in HiSec, LoSec, and in Big Alliance/Corps in Zero. Finally shipping and trading between Zero and HiSec to the point that I can pay for my game time in isk.

HOWEVER....

I suggest that most people coming to Eve have some expectation of participating in the grand space opera that Eve presents and they are less than impressed when they finally realize that their ONLY role of participation is that of a rent paying piece of cannon-fodder defending the assets of a pre-existing RMT farm.



This i agree is all too true, we need to educate the players about the true nature of null. Many if not most of the new corps going to null have no real idea of how the goo/isk/RMT goes around.

Instead of short posts assuming players know the history of Eve we need to add info. I have never been in a null alliance, just done alot of reading and have a vague understanding from around the time Bob died to now. Eve is a disgusting place.

If more players knew what is going on i believe they would refuse to Rent. They are nothing but slaves when renting and contributing to thier own surfdom.

EN24 is a "news" source where you can filter out the 80% crap and over time get an idea of what is going on..however NEVER take
one of the articles as completely true.
Boober Fraggle
#24 - 2012-01-04 04:52:16 UTC
Ira Theos wrote:
Six years of Eve behind me. 100+ million SP. Been around the block through small Corps in HiSec, LoSec, and in Big Alliance/Corps in Zero. Finally shipping and trading between Zero and HiSec to the point that I can pay for my game time in isk.

HOWEVER....

It pains me for Eve's present and future, to hear comments like Atticus Fynch's, BECAUSE THEY ARE TRUE.

Atticus is clearly "Joe Blow Noob Player"... and regardless of what the Fan Bois' and Bitter Vet's opinions are of the impressions that such Noob Players hold and express about Eve, these very impressions are what determine whether Eve will grow in subscription numbers or remain a "niche" game populated by a relatively few (admittedly sociopathic) players.

As for the sociopaths among us who don't care and say "good riddance" to a potential player like Atticus who they regard as unfit to play Eve, there is no point in discussing the matter further. However, for those among us who would welcome a broader player base, and indeed for CCP who I imagine would like to increase their subscription numbers, I think Mr Fynch's comments are well worth hearing out and paying attention to.

I myself have major issues with Eve's game balance which, for lack of effective control mechanisms, has led to a sovereignty system in zero that is not only BORING AS HELL, but dominated almost entirely by BOTTERS and RMT FARMING operations. It was not always like this, but has increasingly evolved this way through the years.

This has been truly dissapointing. Even more so when one considers the incredible potential of the concept of Eve as a "game". A game, however, TO BE a "game", must at it's foundation, be reasonably open to new players with respect to the accomplishment of the major entertainment aspects of the game. The Fan Bois will now chime in that "Eve is a sandbox! Not a game! Do what you want!" , but I suggest that most people coming to Eve have some expectation of participating in the grand space opera that Eve presents and they are less than impressed when they finally realize that their ONLY role of participation is that of a rent paying piece of cannon-fodder defending the assets of a pre-existing RMT farm.

Oh My! How Thrilling! Yawn... Guess it's back to WOW or where ever... (another lost potential subscriber).

As for me, I only hang around because I still have isk to spend on PLEX. (another lost long time paying subscriber).


I try to tell em but they don't wanna listen. If you kill of the fresh fish they never grow into big fish.
Dutarro
Ghezer Aramih
#25 - 2012-01-04 05:06:27 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:
All non-combat ships in EVE are patsys.

Sitting ducks in low and null sec. Yet they are needed for EVE's "economy" to continue. Well, not really if you think about it, but they help.

The consensus in EVE is to "join a corp...blah...blah...blah...get escorted...blah...blah...blah...HTFU"

So to operate as a hauler or miner in EVE you need to have someone hold your hand?



No, you don't need someone to hold your hand. The lone hauler or miner's best defenses are intel, stealth and warp core stabilizers. You can't win a combat engagement in those ships, so avoid engagement whenever possible.
Selinate
#26 - 2012-01-04 05:17:24 UTC
there are a lot of problems with the mechanics of this game that have been holding it back from flourishing and having a player base that's large in number. Balance is just one of them. Extraneous BS that just over-complicates the game is another. Use of 20 alt accounts to get an upper hand is yet another.

I'm still waiting for CCP to figure it out.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-01-04 07:20:57 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
I pvp in a hauler...

Get out.

Battle badgers FTW Cool


Chandaris wrote:
Mining Rokh

/thread


So what's going on in here?
pussnheels
Viziam
#28 - 2012-01-04 07:36:08 UTC
good point OP
and i really don't care if i get a ban or not but i am so sick and tired of those ******* griefers AKA jerks who love hurting people because the idiots at CCP are letting them grief,all in the name of their idiotic sandbox principle
this game isn't a adventure anymore in a dark far distant future anymore , where ganking was a mean to survive ,
Now it has become a griefersparadise were jerks are encouraged to go out and grief on masse and if they can hurt someone in RL even better
CCP even went so far to unban people who made RL threats just for PR reasons

It is wrong so wrong

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Belidos Goveko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-01-04 07:59:32 UTC
When people try to kill me in my hauler or miner i don't worry about it, i don't complain about it and i don't cry about it. I just sit back with a smug grin on my face and think to myself "oh lookie there's another pilot who can't pvp properly so has to pick on defencless ships to get kill mails" Blink
W1rlW1nd
WirlWind
#30 - 2012-01-04 08:11:03 UTC
Ira Theos wrote:
Six years of Eve behind me. ...It pains me for Eve's present and future, to hear comments like Atticus Fynch's, ...



The core philosophy of EVE has not changed at all in that 6 years, new players WHO DON'T LIKE IT it have been trying and rage quitting for all that time (actually for all 8+ years of release), and EVE is still here.

If it still pains you seeing these threads, really just relax. Obviously it is not having a negative effect. Every video game in existance has people who try it, hate it and quit, but not every game is still going after 8 years.

People who don't like this game should NOT be playing it, plain and simple. Same as all the other games they don't like and don't play.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-01-04 08:38:53 UTC
W1rlW1nd wrote:
Ira Theos wrote:
Six years of Eve behind me. ...It pains me for Eve's present and future, to hear comments like Atticus Fynch's, ...



The core philosophy of EVE has not changed at all in that 6 years, new players WHO DON'T LIKE IT it have been trying and rage quitting for all that time (actually for all 8+ years of release), and EVE is still here.

If it still pains you seeing these threads, really just relax. Obviously it is not having a negative effect. Every video game in existance has people who try it, hate it and quit, but not every game is still going after 8 years.

People who don't like this game should NOT be playing it, plain and simple. Same as all the other games they don't like and don't play.


Depend what game. I sure can find an game within EVE i like or would like to try yet.
But some types of "game" within EVE is not just for me.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#32 - 2012-01-04 09:07:07 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:
All non-combat ships in EVE are patsys.

Sitting ducks in low and null sec. Yet they are needed for EVE's "economy" to continue. Well, not really if you think about it, but they help.

The consensus in EVE is to "join a corp...blah...blah...blah...get escorted...blah...blah...blah...HTFU"

So to operate as a hauler or miner in EVE you need to have someone hold your hand?

Being a "carebear" is a suckers game in EVE. When it comes down to it, EVE is all about pew-pew.

So, warp-scrambling/webbing an empty exhumer or industrial/transport or freighter to blow it up is fun because....? It offers no fight back, so how can it be fun unless you enjoy being a jerk, which I suspect is what EVE caters to under the guise of being "hardcore."

Considering the isk it takes to acquire some of these ships, it is more a hit to the wallet than pride and that is were I suspect the enjoyment comes. "I just blew up you expensive ship..ha, ha, ha." Maybe it just took me this long to realize all this. (Some genius here is bound to quote "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" which makes absolutely no sense at all.)

My help wanted request goes unanswered but for one sound piece of advice "Heh...be sure you're not hiring the one you're trying to hit." Which is true...just how do I know the mercs are not in cahoots with the target or worse, the merc is an alt of the target?

Way too many loose ends in this game to make it enjoyable for the non-combatant. The trial run was nice, but EVE continues to be a rat race for the non-combat/solo player and a field day for those using them just for target practice and killmails. The graphics have improved but the imbalanced game-play has remained the same.

Do I want the game to be easier? No, but I do want non-combat ships to have a fighting chance without the need to call for someone to help all the time. They should be a special class of ship with defenses/mods available only to that ship class in order to even out the playing field.

Well, this sub is gone 'til next release to see what has changed, if anything.

Fly safe,
Atticus out. o7


I think that there's definitely an argument to be made for allowing the Exhumers a greater range of choice between maximum yield and maximum tank. Obviously it's pointless increasing maximum yield, but a Hulk with all lows/mids/rigs dedicated to tanking should be able to get to around 50k EHP in my opinion. At the moment it tops out at ~30k IIRC.

Alternatively, a tier 3 Exhumer with perhaps slightly less theoretical maximum yield, but considerably greater fitting potential could be introduced. (EG: remove the yield bonus, but add a 3rd low slot and a bunch of grid & CPU). This would have some useful side benefits, including stopping people wailing about Hulk BPOs in MD every 12 days or so.

T1 mining barges can stay as they are for all I care.

Haulers are perfectly fine; Blockade Runners, Orcas, Freighters and Jump Freighters offer excellent options of speed, tank, stealth, range and surreptitiousness for risk management. I lack any sympathy for people who move valuable cargo in untanked Iteron Vs and then wail about getting ganked.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Atticus Fynch
#33 - 2012-01-04 20:36:29 UTC
Thanks for all the feedback.

See my sig for a proposal I suggested.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-01-05 06:14:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
There is a reason you dont have a class per say but certifications that note a level of expertise in any field. The change you are looking for is as simple as training some combat skills to go along with your industry.

Before you go for level 5 researching skills train level 4 combat skills, engineering, electronics etc. At minimum work on getting core competencies up.

The problem you are experiencing is the same as a combat pilot deals with when he tries to generate passive income and can't use reasearch agents or harvest planets for resources.

Min-Maxing is fail. If it's an alt designed for one purpose then it's fine but for a main relax your focus some and pick up some combat ability. Same with combat pilots struggling to keep in ships and tire of mission repetition. Pick up some trade or industry skills.

To keep a good rate of training going pick one profession for now and avoid it.

For instance I neglect mining. I do however have fair trade ability, good social ability for missions and Excellent combat ability. My specialization is electronic warfare.
Atticus Fynch
#35 - 2012-01-05 15:51:56 UTC
Proclus Diadochu wrote:
Atticus Fynch wrote:


Carebear Tears


Scrub


Big smileOh how I love the piwate tears and name calling and mocking in the replies. Afraid that non-combatant ships will actually be harder to gank or be gratuitously destroyed for a non-game feature/advantage called a "killmail"....please more....more...more.

CCP, I think I'm onto something here. If buffing defense features for ships that dont pew-pew is causing all this whining and name calling then it definitely will balance the game out.

Piwates and carebears will finally be on equal footing and you may actually see an increase in subs...which is the bottom line you are looking for, right?

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#36 - 2012-01-05 16:38:37 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:

CCP, I think I'm onto something here. If buffing defense features for ships that dont pew-pew is causing all this whining and name calling then it definitely will balance the game out.

Piwates and carebears will finally be on equal footing and you may actually see an increase in subs...which is the bottom line you are looking for, right?


That's not called balance, that's called griefing other players by using the GMs are your weapon. Giving more industrials more defense features (which is already unnecessary because of BRs, DSPs, and freighters) would not really cause the number of industrials ganked to go down significantly. A non-combat ship is a non-combat ship, and will be destroyed by combat ships given the chance. Period.

Blockade Runners have frigate agility and covert ops cloaks. They are nigh-impossible to catch. Use them if you want safe and fast transport through hostile areas. Deep Space Transports can fit very heavy tanks while still having a good amount of cargo bay, and it takes very determined and pre-prepared suicide gankers to bring one down. So long as you take precautions choosing your route, freighters are also generally safe. You can also mask the cargo of any hauler you have by putting it in a secure container inside the hauler. So far as mining ships, as I have said before: tank them and keep combat drones with you.

There are already plenty of ways to secure your industrial operations against unwanted PvP, even as a solo player, and they work 99% of the time. You whining in here and asking for defensive new features because you can't be assed to actually work with what plenty you've been given is tantamount fo "carebear tears".

HTFU or GTFO. Oh wait, you're GTFOing.

Bye!

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-01-05 17:40:16 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


I think that there's definitely an argument to be made for allowing the Exhumers a greater range of choice between maximum yield and maximum tank. Obviously it's pointless increasing maximum yield, but a Hulk with all lows/mids/rigs dedicated to tanking should be able to get to around 50k EHP in my opinion. At the moment it tops out at ~30k IIRC.

Alternatively, a tier 3 Exhumer with perhaps slightly less theoretical maximum yield, but considerably greater fitting potential could be introduced. (EG: remove the yield bonus, but add a 3rd low slot and a bunch of grid & CPU). This would have some useful side benefits, including stopping people wailing about Hulk BPOs in MD every 12 days or so.

T1 mining barges can stay as they are for all I care.

Haulers are perfectly fine; Blockade Runners, Orcas, Freighters and Jump Freighters offer excellent options of speed, tank, stealth, range and surreptitiousness for risk management. I lack any sympathy for people who move valuable cargo in untanked Iteron Vs and then wail about getting ganked.


I agree with your principle but think you should take it further.

We need a mining ship designed for deep space use - has a yield which can compete with a Covetor (NOT a hulk) but can tank like a battleship. The idea isn't to be able to fight back - the idea is to wait until reinforcements warp in. Currently mining ships have such laughable tanks that they go down in seconds - it doesn't matter if you have guards or not.
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#38 - 2012-01-05 17:57:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Christine Peeveepeeski
Taedrin wrote:


We need a mining ship designed for deep space use - has a yield which can compete with a Covetor (NOT a hulk) but can tank like a battleship. The idea isn't to be able to fight back - the idea is to wait until reinforcements warp in. Currently mining ships have such laughable tanks that they go down in seconds - it doesn't matter if you have guards or not.


What... like a battleship for example?
Hicksimus
Torgue
#39 - 2012-01-05 18:13:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Hicksimus
EvE could actually take a note from X3 here. The fun part of X3 is that your transports of any size can be upgraded to haul but also pack a mean tank just as if they where a PvP ship of comparative size, they simply lack firepower, speed and agility. In EvE they just get beat on from all angles......It would be beneficial to gameplay if CCP looked at the indy hulls based on their comparative cost combat hulls and matched up their tanks.


For anybody that suspects I am a hardcore carebear....... http://www.omega-xi.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=1000 . Screw it the link doesn't work it's me and another using 2 thrashers to kill a decently fit cane.

Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you? Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#40 - 2012-01-05 18:14:10 UTC
Taedrin wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


I think that there's definitely an argument to be made for allowing the Exhumers a greater range of choice between maximum yield and maximum tank. Obviously it's pointless increasing maximum yield, but a Hulk with all lows/mids/rigs dedicated to tanking should be able to get to around 50k EHP in my opinion. At the moment it tops out at ~30k IIRC.

Alternatively, a tier 3 Exhumer with perhaps slightly less theoretical maximum yield, but considerably greater fitting potential could be introduced. (EG: remove the yield bonus, but add a 3rd low slot and a bunch of grid & CPU). This would have some useful side benefits, including stopping people wailing about Hulk BPOs in MD every 12 days or so.

T1 mining barges can stay as they are for all I care.

Haulers are perfectly fine; Blockade Runners, Orcas, Freighters and Jump Freighters offer excellent options of speed, tank, stealth, range and surreptitiousness for risk management. I lack any sympathy for people who move valuable cargo in untanked Iteron Vs and then wail about getting ganked.


I agree with your principle but think you should take it further.

We need a mining ship designed for deep space use - has a yield which can compete with a Covetor (NOT a hulk) but can tank like a battleship. The idea isn't to be able to fight back - the idea is to wait until reinforcements warp in. Currently mining ships have such laughable tanks that they go down in seconds - it doesn't matter if you have guards or not.


This is good stuff. I am not a miner/industrialist myself, but with the current available miners/harvesters I would not operate outside either hisec or NAP-space for risk of losing my stuff. It's theoretically possible to mine safely in low/null if you're careful, but it's very hard.

It's not a matter of tank, though, since they can always just bring more people as a response. As Christine said, if you want tank, use a mining Rokh or something. Rather, it's a matter of agility/speed.

IMO if a new class is introduced, it should be more agile, faster, and possibly tankier, with perhaps a bit less mining yield. The Skiff sort of seems to have the right idea, but a horrible implementation (too little mining yield, too little fittings, too little tank). Changing it to actually be useful would be nice: two or three high slots (maybe with a hard limit of two strip miners or ice miners, to have an utility high slot), fitting room for a MSE tank at least, in addition to a MWD. Then give it a 25m3 drone bandwidth to be able to fend off Rifters.

Make a mining ship that has more than a snowball's chance in hell of GTFO-ing, and people will use it. I personally think ninja-mining in hostile 0.0 in a MWD+cloak capable miner would be rather interesting. It puts emphasis on pilot skill rather than on patience waiting for your miners to cycle.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)