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Warfare & Tactics

 
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war and the way's to behave
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disasteur
disasterous industries
#1 - 2012-01-05 12:23:29 UTC
Hello,

i have a small issue and i want to know what your opinion is...

since about a week we have a war dec, that isnt really a problem (**** happens) but the fact is, the war dec corp is an alt corp
with just the one person in it, the persons in question hunt and look for easy targets..alt comes online and accept his buddy's
in to his corp, this goes in matters of just 1 to 2 minutes, and then they attack as me or my friends are a liable target.... but then
after the fight is over they dock and leave corp to make a save get a way...

my opinion on this matter is obvious because im the one complaining about it.... but what do you think of these tactics?
i already petitioned the matter but still no answer..

i really dont mind to fight a war but do it fair and dont behave like a pussy
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#2 - 2012-01-05 13:50:37 UTC
Always consider an online WT to be a threat. Just like ratting with a hostile in system is stupid, doing stuff with a WT in system is stupid unless that stuff is fighting said WT.

Also, there's nothing stopping you from using the same tactics, or a DecShield, or any of the numerous former Exploits relating to WarDecs that are now legal.

But so long as there is a Session Change Timer between them joining corp and Agressing, they're doing nothing wrong.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
disasteur
disasterous industries
#3 - 2012-01-05 14:10:03 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Always consider an online WT to be a threat. Just like ratting with a hostile in system is stupid, doing stuff with a WT in system is stupid unless that stuff is fighting said WT.

Also, there's nothing stopping you from using the same tactics, or a DecShield, or any of the numerous former Exploits relating to WarDecs that are now legal.

But so long as there is a Session Change Timer between them joining corp and Agressing, they're doing nothing wrong.



well put, and ofc. understood

but from your post i take these actions can be considered as a legal way to fight a war?...

ie.

1. create alt corp (just 1 alt in corp)
2. declare war to ...well any corp u like..
3. scout with an alt/char for easy target(s)
4. join alt corp shoot target/kill target
5. dock and leave alt corp (ur save again)
6. fly away
7. do point 1 to 6 over and over ?

well sorry i cant believe this can be done in a legal way, i mean dont we have rules for this?
altough i understand it can just be me who thinks there should be some rules for it.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#4 - 2012-01-05 14:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Anything regarding Wardecs that can be done in the game is legal except for switching corps in space to catch targets. (I would guess switching in space out of a decced corp right before they shoot would cause some hilarious tears and be considered a valid mechanic)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19881&find=unread

Yes, it's a problem and some of the issues used to be banned, but nothing has ever stopped people from joining and leaving decced corps at will, and that's not a bad thing, since the fixes to the "abuse" are much worse than the abuse could ever be.

So the tactic you're taking issue with has never been deemed exploitative.

As to 3, why would you bother using a scout who's at war with your WT? Use a neutral cloaky scout to provide you with a cloaked warpin point (and possibly suicide tackle) to your WT.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Byron D
No Duck's Allowed
#5 - 2012-01-05 14:45:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Byron D
disasteur wrote:


well sorry i cant believe this can be done in a legal way, i mean dont we have rules for this?
altough i understand it can just be me who thinks there should be some rules for it.



To quote a friend : "Unfortunately your disbelief is not a functional substitute for reality"
CausticS0da
Shrubbery Acquisitions
Blohm and Voss Shipyards Alliance
#6 - 2012-01-05 14:59:20 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Anything regarding Wardecs that can be done in the game is legal except for switching corps in space to catch targets. (I would guess switching in space out of a decced corp right before they shoot would cause some hilarious tears and be considered a valid mechanic)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19881&find=unread

Yes, it's a problem and some of the issues used to be banned, but nothing has ever stopped people from joining and leaving decced corps at will, and that's not a bad thing, since the fixes to the "abuse" are much worse than the abuse could ever be.

So the tactic you're taking issue with has never been deemed exploitative.

As to 3, why would you bother using a scout who's at war with your WT? Use a neutral cloaky scout to provide you with a cloaked warpin point (and possibly suicide tackle) to your WT.



I thought I had read that this is considered an exploit.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#7 - 2012-01-05 15:02:25 UTC
CausticS0da wrote:

I thought I had read that this is considered an exploit.


The GMs have been clear. Aside from attacking someone After joining a corp-at-war but Before undergoing a session change timer, Nothing related to Wardecs is an Exploit.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#8 - 2012-01-05 15:03:13 UTC
disasteur wrote:
the persons in question hunt and look for easy targets..alt comes online and accept his buddy's
in to his corp, this goes in matters of just 1 to 2 minutes, and then they attack as me or my friends are a liable target

If they do it while in local with you and in space, it's an exploit.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
disasteur
disasterous industries
#9 - 2012-01-05 15:07:23 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
disasteur wrote:
the persons in question hunt and look for easy targets..alt comes online and accept his buddy's
in to his corp, this goes in matters of just 1 to 2 minutes, and then they attack as me or my friends are a liable target

If they do it while in local with you and in space, it's an exploit.


thats just what i was trying to explain its exactly the tactic they use, afterwards they dock and leave corp for a save getaway
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#10 - 2012-01-05 15:23:34 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
disasteur wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
disasteur wrote:
the persons in question hunt and look for easy targets..alt comes online and accept his buddy's
in to his corp, this goes in matters of just 1 to 2 minutes, and then they attack as me or my friends are a liable target

If they do it while in local with you and in space, it's an exploit.


thats just what i was trying to explain its exactly the tactic they use, afterwards they dock and leave corp for a save getaway


Jack Dan is right, but incomplete.

The rule is that you must go through a session change timer (undocking, switching ships in space, going through a gate, Jumping with a Cap ship, etc) between switching into a corp with an active wardec and aggressing a WT.

Local has nothing to do with it. The easiest way to tell that someone is using this exploit is that (with a properly set up overview) they do not appear to be WTs until they fire upon you(I believe this is still the case).

So long as they switch corps while in station, while in their pod before boarding their ship, or while on the other side of a gate, they will have gone through a session change timer and will have done nothing wrong. All of these but being in a different system will result in a neutral suddenly becoming a WT in local.


EDIT: I misread Jack Dan's post, didn't see the "and in space part"

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#11 - 2012-01-05 15:50:35 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
RubyPorto wrote:
I would guess switching in space out of a decced corp right before they shoot would cause some hilarious tears and be considered a valid mechanic.

You'd be wrong. It's considered an exploit and will get you in trouble.

RubyPorto wrote:
The GMs have been clear. Aside from attacking someone After joining a corp-at-war but Before undergoing a session change timer, Nothing related to Wardecs is an Exploit.

I never pulled that particular stunt, but a GM did confirm for me that it's against the rules because dropping corp in space will lead to conflicting information: their overview and local will show you as a wartarget, but they'll get a concord warning when they try to shoot. You *must* remove yourself from local space before doing something like that.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#12 - 2012-01-05 15:55:19 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
RubyPorto wrote:
So long as they switch corps while in station, while in their pod before boarding their ship, or while on the other side of a gate, they will have gone through a session change timer and will have done nothing wrong. All of these but being in a different system will result in a neutral suddenly becoming a WT in local.

I've done experiments on ship-boarding that show it does not consistently cause the local/overview update with the session change. It's not a reliable method for this stunt and you should NOT use it, as it might earn you a petitionable action.

There are three sure-fire ways to do this right:

Log off in space long enough to be accepted.
Dock up.
Jump through a gate after joining.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#13 - 2012-01-05 19:46:45 UTC
Well, all right then, looks like I misremebered the post. It does mention docking or logging to make the corp swap in the GM post I was thinking of.

So Docking, Logging, or jumping systems needs to happen before agression to avoid *Wrath*

I'm not clear, however, on weather or not OP's violencers are actually in space with him (Identified on grid/Dscan) when they corp hop, or off Grid (in which case it would be tough to prove in the forums that they didn't do one of the above).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-01-06 02:42:13 UTC
its open season on war decs. You can do pretty much anything you like as long as you dont switch corps in space.

everything else is 100% legit.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#15 - 2012-01-06 08:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Books
Take my example, my alts have their own alts, you should do that to, as a matter of fact do exactly what they are doing to you to counter-troll them, dont forget, your goal is to troll them back, while your alts make you iskies.


Or your a 10 star troll, trolling all these trolls here, but pff its not like we dont know that you know that we know that I know that every one knows there IS such things as troll counter maneuvers on the forums to.