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Why does it matter if people are isk rich?
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Luh Windan
green fish hat bang bang
#21 - 2012-01-05 12:47:52 UTC
Aineko Macx wrote:
Luh Windan wrote:
It should be apparent though if the increased supply of isk has reduced PvP via the various killboards. I wonder if they have graphs of activity over time (would be trivial for them to create from their DBs even if they don't)

I think it's safe to assume that the increase in ISK supply is not detrimental to pvp in itself, as less effort is required to replace a ship. People are just switching to more expensive ships. But to keep things interesting at this pace, CCP would have to introduce higher end ships regularly. The better (and actually sustainable) solution is to balance isk faucets/sinks and risk/reward.


So I can see that is a possible risk.

But I refer you to Jimmy Wales and the steak knives problem http://veen.com/jeff/archives/000880.html - it can be very detrimental assuming you can predict the evolution of a complex system (which Eve undoubtedly is) and solving problems before they occur.
Scortched Merc
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#22 - 2012-01-05 12:48:48 UTC
What is considered rich in Eve?

E .· ` ' / ·. F **Your tears fuel my internet spaceship. **
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#23 - 2012-01-05 12:53:10 UTC
Scortched Merc wrote:
What is considered rich in Eve?


1 ISK.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
DelBoy Trades
Trotter Independent Traders.
Stealth Alliance
#24 - 2012-01-05 13:27:55 UTC
OP doesn't understand inflation.

Damn nature, you scary!
Skorpynekomimi
#25 - 2012-01-05 13:32:57 UTC
More liquid ISK = harder for newbies = less newbies = less money for ccp.

When attrition of older players < amount of staying newbies, CCP will slowly go out of business.

Economic PVP
Luh Windan
green fish hat bang bang
#26 - 2012-01-05 13:34:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Luh Windan
DelBoy Trades wrote:
OP doesn't understand inflation.


I do understand inflation but I'm yet to be convinced that what is going on is as clear cut as that.

Secondly, while inflation is a very bad thing in a real world economy (because we use our money to stay alive) it is less clear what the impact would be in Eve (in fact the social issues that can be caused by a seemingly out of control system, which is where inflation eventually leads, might be quite interesting in Eve given we are all armed to the teeth)

but hey. received wisdom :- t's inflation stupid. Inflation is bad. End of argument - let's not try and understand anything shall we?
Luh Windan
green fish hat bang bang
#27 - 2012-01-05 13:35:22 UTC
Skorpynekomimi wrote:
More liquid ISK = harder for newbies = less newbies = less money for ccp.

When attrition of older players < amount of staying newbies, CCP will slowly go out of business.


First cogent point I've seen - and yes you might be right. Hadn't looked at it that way and do agree that will be a problem.
Scortched Merc
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#28 - 2012-01-05 14:58:28 UTC
I still want to know what is considered rich in this game...

1bil?
5bil?
10bil?
25bil?
How ever much Chirbba has?

E .· ` ' / ·. F **Your tears fuel my internet spaceship. **
Kelsi Corynn
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-01-05 15:59:23 UTC
Scortched Merc wrote:
I still want to know what is considered rich in this game...


It's the same as in real life. Anyone with more ISK than you is a sleazy, greedy plutocrat; anyone with less ISK than you is a scummy ratty plebeian.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#30 - 2012-01-05 19:43:07 UTC
Scortched Merc wrote:
I still want to know what is considered rich in this game...

1bil?
5bil?
10bil?
25bil?
How ever much Chirbba has?


1 ISK is considered to be an amount of money greater than most non-Capsuleers will ever see in a lifetime.

One early mission item is, IIRC "A Lot of Money" the agent considers it an easy enough bribe to pay, as it's significantly less than an ISK.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Aineko Macx
#31 - 2012-01-05 22:12:01 UTC
Luh Windan wrote:
it can be very detrimental assuming you can predict the evolution of a complex system (which Eve undoubtedly is) and solving problems before they occur.

Actually, the macro economics of closed virtual economies like eves are pretty well understood. Even CCP stated multiple times that they are unhappy about the imbalance between sinks and faucets (and still, they introduce more faucets, derp).
Also see mudflation.

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#32 - 2012-01-05 22:42:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Professor Alphane
Frankly I'm not bothered how much isk other people have, my thread regarding isk wasn't a compaint about other people being rich. Rather it was an observation how things had changed and how this change had fundamentaly altered the progression dynamic, it used be be the limting factor on ship development was isk and you needed to grind for it if you wanted to achieve something, now adays isk is so easy to come by you could rush through the ship classes as soon as you can train for it.

Though to be fair and give a balnced point of view there are now more things to do ingame when you reach BS's, it used to be you could just do lvl 4's or mine a bit quicker. Now theres a distinct level of playstyle beyond that even if your main direction is not pure PVP (ie low/null in the old days) like incursions or WH's (though there is a Pvp aspect). The game has certainly changed and the amount of isk in peoples wallets is only one aspect of that.

/edit thank god for copy/paste would have hated to have had to type all that again .. Roll

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Macks Artilius
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-01-05 22:46:16 UTC
Scortched Merc wrote:
I still want to know what is considered rich in this game...

1bil?
5bil?
10bil?
25bil?
How ever much Chirbba has?


The same answer as to any other question in EVE. "It depends". Usually it depends on your point-of-view compared with the people around you.

When I found a 1-jump trade route that earned me 1 million isk in my first week, I thought that was a lot of money.

When I found a highsec radar with 12 million of loot inside in my third week, I thought that was a lot of money.

When I took up wormhole diving and made 120M isk in one go I thought that was a lot of money... and I still do actually, but I have faster ways to make that kind of isk now.

When I made my first billion, I thought that was a lot of money.

Now I fly around in a ship worth hundreds of times what I once considered "a lot" of money. The longer you play EVE, the more your perception of the value of isk is skewed.
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-01-05 23:52:33 UTC
Luh Windan wrote:
DelBoy Trades wrote:
OP doesn't understand inflation.


I do understand inflation but I'm yet to be convinced that what is going on is as clear cut as that.

Secondly, while inflation is a very bad thing in a real world economy (because we use our money to stay alive) it is less clear what the impact would be in Eve (in fact the social issues that can be caused by a seemingly out of control system, which is where inflation eventually leads, might be quite interesting in Eve given we are all armed to the teeth)

but hey. received wisdom :- t's inflation stupid. Inflation is bad. End of argument - let's not try and understand anything shall we?


Actually pure inflation is harmless - prices rise, but so too do wages/salaries. And in fact, a small amount of inflation is good for the economy, because it encourages people with money to spend it - due to the fact that their money loses value if they hold on to it.

What is bad for the economy is impure inflation - because prices can rise in one area of the economy, but fall in another area. This uneven change in prices causes some entities to benefit and others to lose.

And of course, hyperinflation is bad, too.
Luh Windan
green fish hat bang bang
#35 - 2012-01-05 23:54:26 UTC
Professor Alphane wrote:
Frankly I'm not bothered how much isk other people have, my thread regarding isk wasn't a compaint about other people being rich. ]


And I wasn't having a go.

It seems that there is a huge amount of received wisdom - essentially "it's inflation stupid don't you know anything"

But beyond that we find that it isn't black and white that there is economy wide inflation but there are some indicators which may show inflation. Secondly the reason inflation is bad in a game like Eve is not for 90% of the rubbish people talk about but because it damages the game for new players and threatens therefore the existence of the game.
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-01-05 23:56:25 UTC
Scortched Merc wrote:
I still want to know what is considered rich in this game...

1bil?
5bil?
10bil?
25bil?
How ever much Chirbba has?


Linkage

Of course, as others have mentioned, everything is entirely dependent upon your point of view, and more especially on how you spend your money. For many characters, it makes more sense to consider your Net Asset Value (NAV) than how much ISK you have in your wallet.
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#37 - 2012-01-06 00:16:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Professor Alphane
What has happened in EVE isn't infaltion though. To quote Wiki

Quote:
inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.


Now the goods in EVE stay at pretty much the same level (because of the way industry works) our earnings however have increased so everyone has more disposable income.

An example of ingame inflation is a 'purple drop' as it's rare the more people want it and will pay more for it pricing newer players out the market. The more gold people have the more they will pay the bigger the gap gets.

Eve's market doesn't revolve around drops though it revolves around a complex 'crafting' system for want of a better word, where the price of an item is relative to the value of the minerals it can be broken down to (as a baseline at least).

This is essentially a good thing for a new player as they can now buy more stuff given what they earn than players used to be able to.

TLDR

Richer players != Inflation

EVE's market isn't comprable to other MMO's as it mostly 'crafting' based.

More money in your wallet = more fun for noobs

/edit I understand you weren't having a go, I just kinda carried on where I left off in this discussion of a slightly diffrent aspect of the subject, but thanks for pointing it out anyhow Blink

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-01-06 02:18:42 UTC
Because the stupids think things get more expensive or isk loses its value or something dumb like that, when it never does. And if it did, everything affected by it would change along with it to normalize it.
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-01-06 02:37:18 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
easy isk doesn't result in people being any richer, it only results in prices being higher.


kerching there it is.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
1-Up Mushroom
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-01-06 03:19:20 UTC
I have a point to make.

1) If the average ISK in a players wallet was 100M, 100M wouldn't be too much, it would be just kind of average ISK that is pretty easy to attain.
But now lets say the average ISK in a players wallet was 100B, would 100B mean everybody is rich? No, 100B mean you have an average amount of ISK. So if it's easier to get ISK then everybody gets it, then the people who were previously space rich now become less "rich" in comparison to how they used to be forcing them to grind for more ISK if they want to be rich again. It's this endless cycle that if CCP keeps decreasing the difficulty to get ISK then 100B might eventually mean your wallet is just average, people don't seem to like that.
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