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So... how would you nerf T3's ?

Author
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2015-10-02 11:28:34 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Atleast for the svipul in particular, the high agility allows for fast and tight orbits, partially negating the restrictions/issues created by fitting ACs with abysmal range. At twice the inertia, their orbits would be significantly wider or slower, reducing their applied dps - remaining unharmed by tracking issues at some .7/s - significantly. One can dream.

Else, commiting fully to an oversized AB should have some sort of merit, but the base sigs for svipul and confessor could do with some tweaking.


Agreed the svipul is the worst of them but i think if it was brought in line, the other T3D's would come to the front.

Each of them still overshadows a number of other ships and roles... i could go hrough each but i think most of you can see for yourself why you would want to use them over other counterparts.

No Worries

The Asteroid
Fuel Blocks for Dante
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#82 - 2015-10-02 11:40:06 UTC
Removing them from the game counts as a nerf right? Lol
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#83 - 2015-10-02 11:53:59 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
Agreed the svipul is the worst of them but i think if it was brought in line, the other T3D's would come to the front.

Each of them still overshadows a number of other ships and roles... i could go hrough each but i think most of you can see for yourself why you would want to use them over other counterparts.


They could already, yet don't. An ASB Jackdaw under AB doesn't provide nearly the sigtank a hawk with 2 ASBs and AB would. In a 1v1 engagement, the roles are clear but to tackle a Golem in a c4 site, you put that scram on a hawk and go with that one, while precision cruises - common on c4 golems - would blow the Jack into pieces. Same way an enyo can mitigate a cruisers dps in a way a hecate could only dream off, pulling off structure buffer/armor resists is the AF's territory, not the T3D's.

If you start considering velocity bonused amarr/minmatar choices, that's a different topic entirely. Sig matters... like, a lot. The Hecate and Jackdaw both suffer from being slow and huge, while the svipul and confessor were just ignored in that regard. And linked sigs of 27m for a confessor (just from memory, not sure if that's accurate) will actually mitigate damage from it's only hard cruiser-sized counter, (rapid) light missile alpha.
Zirashi
Cyclical Destruction
#84 - 2015-10-02 12:52:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Zirashi
Garrett Osinov wrote:

Train them, fly them, and write only then !!!! On the other hand If you don't have a clue, why and when you need to fly ceptor and not T3 destroyer, then I would recomend you to stick to marauders and mission running in hisec.

The problem is that ppl don't fly those ships and don't have a clue about them, but already screaming and whining, that they are overpowerd and they need to be nerfed.

Then give me a clue and answer my question. Unlike some, I'm not an arrogant prick who thinks he knows everything about everything. Part of getting smarter is to sometimes look stupid and I'm ok with that process. If I'm being stupid, feel free to show me the way.

As far as I can tell, in that hypothetical arty Svipul/blaster Taranis comparison,

the Svipul seems to have greater tank, greater DPS and alpha, greater range, greater speed, greater utility, similar sig, and similar cost.

The Taranis has bubble immunity and is likely more agile, but is seemingly inferior in every other way.

So, when would I take the Taranis over the Svipul for anything other than dodging bubbles in null/wormholes? What am I missing?

Also note that I never outright said "Svipul is OP." All I said was that your post started to make me think it MIGHT be since it looks like it beats specialized hulls at their own game. Lastly, I was training Marauders with the intention of fitting, then whelping a Golem in low sec because I figured it would probably be pretty funny, not because I wanted to mission. With plex currently sitting at over a billion per, why would I want to do something like grinding missions for isk? Thanks for the tip though.
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#85 - 2015-10-02 13:12:55 UTC
Can we close this thread? Smile
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#86 - 2015-10-02 13:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
For cruisers I would drop rezists to t2 and fix many useless sub systems for start.

They are t3 they should be superior right out of box.maybe increase skill loss but they need to keep OP flavor to some extent.

I don't even know why t3d are in new eden tbh.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Valacus
Streets of Fire
#87 - 2015-10-02 20:42:47 UTC
Zirashi wrote:
Garrett Osinov wrote:

Train them, fly them, and write only then !!!! On the other hand If you don't have a clue, why and when you need to fly ceptor and not T3 destroyer, then I would recomend you to stick to marauders and mission running in hisec.

The problem is that ppl don't fly those ships and don't have a clue about them, but already screaming and whining, that they are overpowerd and they need to be nerfed.

Then give me a clue and answer my question. Unlike some, I'm not an arrogant prick who thinks he knows everything about everything. Part of getting smarter is to sometimes look stupid and I'm ok with that process. If I'm being stupid, feel free to show me the way.

As far as I can tell, in that hypothetical arty Svipul/blaster Taranis comparison,

the Svipul seems to have greater tank, greater DPS and alpha, greater range, greater speed, greater utility, similar sig, and similar cost.

The Taranis has bubble immunity and is likely more agile, but is seemingly inferior in every other way.

So, when would I take the Taranis over the Svipul for anything other than dodging bubbles in null/wormholes? What am I missing?

Also note that I never outright said "Svipul is OP." All I said was that your post started to make me think it MIGHT be since it looks like it beats specialized hulls at their own game. Lastly, I was training Marauders with the intention of fitting, then whelping a Golem in low sec because I figured it would probably be pretty funny, not because I wanted to mission. With plex currently sitting at over a billion per, why would I want to do something like grinding missions for isk? Thanks for the tip though.


The Svipul is definitely the worst of the T3Ds, followed closely by the Confessor. It's too fast, hits too hard, is too small, and makes short work of any other ship in its class. It definitely needs to be brought down the most, but T3Ds in general are pretty stupid. They're the worst ship introduction CCP has launched.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#88 - 2015-10-02 21:48:10 UTC
Valacus wrote:
They're the worst ship introduction CCP has launched.


You just missed pre-TE nerf Talos. Now that thing was stupid.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2015-10-02 23:22:07 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Valacus wrote:
They're the worst ship introduction CCP has launched.


You just missed pre-TE nerf Talos. Now that thing was stupid.


AOE Doomsday titans.....

No Worries

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#90 - 2015-10-03 01:22:07 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Valacus wrote:
They're the worst ship introduction CCP has launched.


You just missed pre-TE nerf Talos. Now that thing was stupid.


AOE Doomsday titans.....


Touché, Talos and 13charges cane though were the first broken things I actually got to exploit :>
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#91 - 2015-10-04 16:50:39 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Valacus wrote:
They're the worst ship introduction CCP has launched.


You just missed pre-TE nerf Talos. Now that thing was stupid.


It was prenerf Tornado long before it was prenerf Talos, because Tier 3 BCs were released back when Winmatar was still Winmatar. And even non-AoE DD titans were OP because people would just hook them up with remote tracking links and one shot BCs and up with their guns. They ended up changing titans so they practically can't fight subcaps at all to make them work.

Back on the subject at hand, I think all t3 ships should be nerfed to t1 resistances. That'd go leaps and bounds to knocking them off Cloud 9. Now they can't be micro-battleships and micro-cruisers.
Reah Darknorth
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2015-10-04 19:15:25 UTC
Valacus wrote:

Back on the subject at hand, I think all t3 ships should be nerfed to t1 resistances. That'd go leaps and bounds to knocking them off Cloud 9. Now they can't be micro-battleships and micro-cruisers.

That is a horrible idea son. T3s are already super slow. Giving them T1 resists is nothing but lol-worthy. You must really hate them if you want to nerf them that bad. That's ridiculous.
Garrett Osinov
Doomheim
#93 - 2015-10-04 19:40:50 UTC
Valacus wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Valacus wrote:
They're the worst ship introduction CCP has launched.


You just missed pre-TE nerf Talos. Now that thing was stupid.


It was prenerf Tornado long before it was prenerf Talos, because Tier 3 BCs were released back when Winmatar was still Winmatar. And even non-AoE DD titans were OP because people would just hook them up with remote tracking links and one shot BCs and up with their guns. They ended up changing titans so they practically can't fight subcaps at all to make them work.

Back on the subject at hand, I think all t3 ships should be nerfed to t1 resistances. That'd go leaps and bounds to knocking them off Cloud 9. Now they can't be micro-battleships and micro-cruisers.


How about nerfing T2 / Hacs ? Lets give them T1 resistances ! Cause it is overpowered to have t2 resistances !

Or another idea, lets nerf all ships and fly ibises ! Then everyone would be equal !
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#94 - 2015-10-04 20:47:24 UTC
Garrett Osinov wrote:


How about nerfing T2 / Hacs ? Lets give them T1 resistances ! Cause it is overpowered to have t2 resistances !

Or another idea, lets nerf all ships and fly ibises ! Then everyone would be equal !


Hacs aren't getting battleship tanks while being cap stable with a smallish sig, good speed and good firepower. T3s need to land between t1 and t2 so that t2 cruisers are a viable option.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2015-10-04 21:19:38 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Garrett Osinov wrote:


How about nerfing T2 / Hacs ? Lets give them T1 resistances ! Cause it is overpowered to have t2 resistances !

Or another idea, lets nerf all ships and fly ibises ! Then everyone would be equal !


Hacs aren't getting battleship tanks while being cap stable with a smallish sig, good speed and good firepower. T3s need to land between t1 and t2 so that t2 cruisers are a viable option.


Such advanced technologies can not be limited like that. It is more advanced than T2 and applying nerf limitations isn't a good sign. T3D have to be better than T2 frigs in certain ares not all of them but still. Otherwise it is shame to have an advanced technology which couldn't perform well.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#96 - 2015-10-04 21:27:37 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:


Such advanced technologies can not be limited like that. It is more advanced than T2 and applying nerf limitations isn't a good sign. T3D have to be better than T2 frigs in certain ares not all of them but still. Otherwise it is shame to have an advanced technology which couldn't perform well.


Their job is to be highly adaptable, not to out class everything around them.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2015-10-04 21:44:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:


Such advanced technologies can not be limited like that. It is more advanced than T2 and applying nerf limitations isn't a good sign. T3D have to be better than T2 frigs in certain ares not all of them but still. Otherwise it is shame to have an advanced technology which couldn't perform well.


Their job is to be highly adaptable, not to out class everything around them.


I'd prefer call that flexability to perform well in diffferent roles. Which doesn't mean they have to outperform lower class ships.
I don't know CCP did prefer to introduce the whole new class vs. rework the existing hulls. Probably it was cheaper and more achievable in terms of time limit.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2015-10-05 00:36:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:


Such advanced technologies can not be limited like that. It is more advanced than T2 and applying nerf limitations isn't a good sign. T3D have to be better than T2 frigs in certain ares not all of them but still. Otherwise it is shame to have an advanced technology which couldn't perform well.


Their job is to be highly adaptable, not to out class everything around them.


Nobody flies a ship to be flexible. They bring the best ship for the task at hand. I think it's unrealistic to think people will choose a T3 for flexibility over a T2 or pirate hull that is better for whatever they are doing.

I think T3's already have two big disadvantages as opposed to T2's - their cost (2-3x more than a T2) and the skill loss upon losing a hull. They are also generally quite a bit slower than other cruisers.

Baltec it sounds like you want T3's to stop being a superior choice to BS for large scale fleet doctrines. Slippery Petes (which I have not personally experienced but I have heard the horror stories) seem to be the most egregious offenders.

I think that removing all range bonuses from T3 subs would fix the problem in one go. T3's remain extremely powerful for small gang, PvE and niche roles but become unable to project DPS at battleship ranges.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2015-10-05 01:06:50 UTC
How about their ability to generate same level of HP that t3 able to absorb?

Do you remeber well when BS era came into it's darkest time? I remember well the times when i see at opposite side plenty of Apocs, Tempests and few more. Now i see only Machariels and Rattlers all the rest are smaller hulls.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#100 - 2015-10-05 03:25:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Desideratus
The whole small ship meta needs to be taken care of right now. I'm talking about all the ships that use small sized weapons, including T3Ds.

T3Ds cost significantly less than most pirate faction frigates, yet are superior to them in every practical sense. Something needs to happen here, not sure what, maybe it's an increase in T3D production costs, or a nerf or whatever, but I don't think it can stay this way.

The pirate faction frigate themselves must be looked at yet again. Garmur and Astero are fine. Garmur isn't OP, links are OP and Garmur works really well with them (get rid of links pls). Worm is fine (maybe a bit OP, not sure on that). Cruor needs to be overhauled. Too much potential utility and not enough actual viability. Not great for solo and there are better things to use in gangs and fleets. Unfortunate but true. Also whoever thought of putting a 5m3 drone bay on the Cruor must have done that as a cruel joke. That's just horrible. Succubus, Dramiel and Daredevil are a little overshadowed by the other ones but they're still good. IMO they should be buffed ever so slightly but hey, whatever.

Assault ships should be faster than T3Ds but they are actually slower. Boom nailed it.