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Drones (slightly) OP?
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Beldrulf Arbosa
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-10-03 21:55:01 UTC
This post is just my opinion on drone mechanics in Eve Online. Feel free to respond to it with your own thoughts.


Problem:

Here's the way I see it, the other weapon systems in eve online can be disrupted in some way or another, almost like shortcuts.

Daredevil's blaster dps is too strong for your little comet to handle? Neut his ass and negate the dps. Shortcut!

Corax's rockets are managing to hit your kiting ship? Tracking disrupt him and reduce his range. Shortcut!

You're trying to kill a vexor, but you cant tank his drones for any significant amount of time, and he has too many spare drones for you to kill all of them? Too bad. Regardless of whether you ECM, neut, TD, or damp that vexor, his drones are still going to be on you.


Proposal:

I think that to reduce the OPness of drones, without killing their usefulness outright, ONE of two things should happen.

1: Drones be made susceptible to various forms of ewar. Anyone who has tried neuting a drone will know that no good comes of it. I think that the ability to neut, jam, TD etc. drones would be helpful in allowing fleets to decrease incoming drone damage at least partially.

2: Add modules aimed at reducing the effectiveness of drones/drone boats. For example, a high slot module that acts as an AOE short range tracking disruptor that only works on drones to reduce their effectiveness? Or maybe a module similar to the standard tracking disruptor for targeted ewar that reduces a ship's bandwidth or drone control range?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-10-03 21:58:17 UTC
You can shoot drones, just saying.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Beldrulf Arbosa
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-10-03 22:04:05 UTC
You can shoot a blaster ship, but you can also use ewar against it. I guess my main complaint is that with drones in their current state, DPS is the only way to take care of them, and Eve has proven to be a game where there are multiple solutions to any problem. I just don't think drone boats shouldn't have to worry about electronic warfare like the rest of the ships in eve.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#4 - 2015-10-03 22:26:04 UTC
smartbombs are pretty sweet for taking care of most drones. that said it is unfortunate as CCP seems to have had a war on utility high slots, and most of the time you want a neut there. doesn't work so well vs sentries, and not so sure how well it works vs gurista ships.

also td's don't work on rockets, but there is something like that coming soon™

I think TDs do work on drones, but with the number of drones seems impractical in most cases.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Beldrulf Arbosa
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-10-03 22:51:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Beldrulf Arbosa
the optimal range disruption scrips don't work on rockets?
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#6 - 2015-10-03 22:56:40 UTC
Quote:
AOE short range tracking disruptor

Why not AOE short range hull disruptor (smartbomb)?

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Bootneck
Doomheim
#7 - 2015-10-03 22:59:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Bootneck
Edit:

I'm retracting my comments because i haz the dumb today.

There's already very good solution to killing drones, web them. As below posters point out, unlike every other ship every drone you kill reduces their dps by 20 percent - non-drone boats can keep spitting all their damage until you kill them.

I'm not smart enough to consider that point, which is why we should let CCP figure all this stuff out.

There's no school like the old school and I've been expelled.
Memphis Baas
#8 - 2015-10-03 23:33:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
In my opinion, the fact that you can directly shoot the weapon system (drones) balances out the fact that they're not tied into their ship's EWAR or energy drain susceptibility. There are other weapons that don't depend on energy or ewar (missiles, FOF missiles, projectile weapons), and you can't shoot someone's guns or missile launchers out of their ship. In effect, you have to go through the tank of the entire ship to kill the weapon system, and drones have much weaker tanks than player ships.

Basically, it's not the drones' fault that you can't tank or shoot them down fast enough.

They orbit close, BTW, so smartbombs just murder drones. They're the "countermeasures" you think are missing.

Gallente ships already fit low and mid slot drone upgrades (to bring their damage up to par), and high slot drone range enhancers.

They're not limited by the number of high slots, and we pay for that with the fact that they can easily be destroyed (look up the various drone shield, armor, and hull hitpoints - they're laughable). They ARE limited by the ship bandwidth, and by skills (tell me what other weapon system you need to train a skill to 5 in order to use all the slots that the ship offers? None; you can fit all 8 slots on a destroyer with guns even if your gunnery skills are at 1).

I think drones are fine.

EDIT: Every big ship uses them as a necessary defense against frigates, which basically forces all races to train drone skills. They're not just a Gallente (and Amarr) weapon system. It would be a pain to rebalance ALL ships to add high slots for just anti-frigate defense weapons.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2015-10-03 23:38:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
"Balancing" by making everything work exactly the same except for different pretty colored lights is an easy option for devs and particularly bad overall for a game as everything becomes a wishywashy mish mash of sameness with no meaningful choices.

Drones have downsides. They can be destroyed which unlike neuting a cap dependant ship removes the offensive capability of the drone ship totally. They can be webbed, this is particularly nasty on geckos. Sentry Drones are stationary meaning you either need to stay near them or risk losing them. Being forced to warp off means leaving the drones behind (leaving two geckos behind is a 300 mill "gift" to your attackers).

If drones are OP balance by making the penalties more severe not making them into a sort of very slow missile turret.
Memphis Baas
#10 - 2015-10-03 23:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
I don't know if they are OP. At least in EFT, drone boats don't achieve massively more damage than gun boats (when equivalent tech level drones/guns are used), the drone skills are organized like the Gunnery skills, so that achieving T2 takes a long time, and otherwise people lose them all the time. Even the NPCs shoot drones now; CCP has published the details so we know how to minimize that risk, but send a drone boat into a mission with waves or random surprise elites, and the drones are screwed.



EDIT: I'd go for drones having to use high slots, if:

- drones become untargettable (just like missiles and guns)
- if you want to disable the drones, you have to ewar my ship (just like with missiles and guns)

So that means that a lot of ships that are limited to 5 drones (bandwidth) suddenly gain the full use of their 7-8 high slots*, which is nice. And, instead of just shooting my drones to disable them, now you have to bring a buddy with an EWAR ship with strong enough jammers to beat my ship's sensor strength. Which is, again, very nice for me. And finally, those stupid NPCs don't shoot my drones anymore, and I can afk-mission again.

So yeah, go for it.

* drones skill still limits the number of drones to 5, unfortunately.
Bootneck
Doomheim
#11 - 2015-10-04 00:06:15 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
I don't know if they are OP. At least in EFT, drone boats don't achieve massively more damage than gun boats (when equivalent tech level drones/guns are used), the drone skills are organized like the Gunnery skills, so that achieving T2 takes a long time, and otherwise people lose them all the time. Even the NPCs shoot drones now; CCP has published the details so we know how to minimize that risk, but send a drone boat into a mission with waves or random surprise elites, and the drones are screwed.



EDIT: I'd go for drones having to use high slots, if:

- drones become untargettable (just like missiles and guns)
- if you want to disable the drones, you have to ewar my ship (just like with missiles and guns)

So that means that a lot of ships that are limited to 5 drones (bandwidth) suddenly gain the full use of their 7-8 high slots, which is nice. And, instead of just shooting my drones to disable them, now you have to bring a buddy with an EWAR ship with strong enough jammers to beat my ship's sensor strength. Which is, again, very nice for me. And finally, those stupid NPCs don't shoot my drones anymore, and I can afk-mission again.

So yeah, go for it.


I've never understood why the gallante couldn't use more than 5 drones when other ships can fit more than 5 turrets.

Buff drones ! Lol

There's no school like the old school and I've been expelled.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#12 - 2015-10-04 00:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mephiztopheleze
Beldrulf Arbosa wrote:

1: Drones be made susceptible to various forms of ewar. Anyone who has tried neuting a drone will know that no good comes of it. I think that the ability to neut, jam, TD etc. drones would be helpful in allowing fleets to decrease incoming drone damage at least partially.


They are and you can. I routinely jam Geckos.

Although ECM and Tracking Disruption are far more useful against Drones than Damps.

Memphis Baas wrote:
And, instead of just shooting my drones to disable them, now you have to bring a buddy with an EWAR ship with strong enough jammers to beat my ship's sensor strength. Which is, again, very nice for me. And finally, those stupid NPCs don't shoot my drones anymore, and I can afk-mission again.


You don't jam the Drone Boat, you jam the Drones. Most of them have pretty pithy sensor strength and are equally vulnerable to all racial ECM modules.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2015-10-04 00:25:07 UTC
Also good to note, there's a good chunk of the drone types that are easily avoided over simple disruption, the difference being that the same efforts on a turret boat may not have the same impact. Not always, but plenty of situations you can.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#14 - 2015-10-04 00:32:51 UTC
Also: If you're in something small and fast, drones are ridiculously easy to speed-tank.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Memphis Baas
#15 - 2015-10-04 03:53:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Bootneck wrote:
I've never understood why the gallante couldn't use more than 5 drones when other ships can fit more than 5 turrets.


Used to be able to. Drone Interfacing skill allowed 5, Adv. Drone Interfacing skill allowed another 5. No bandwidth to worry about, so if your drone bay could carry 10 drones you could use them. A lot of drone bays back then could carry 7 or 8 drones (like battleship gun racks).

CCP complained that a fleet with so many drones caused horrible load on the servers, so they changed the drones to do approx. double damage, and limited them to 5 by changing the skills. Then they introduced the drone bandwidth limit so they could limit some of the frigates to 1, 2, or 3 drones, as these ships already had guns as their main weapons.

So, currently 5 drones do approx. the same damage as 10 drones from the long ago; they kept the balance and reduced lag by reducing drone numbers.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#16 - 2015-10-04 04:37:14 UTC
Drones follow the same ewar rules as other npc entities.

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Kuronaga
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#17 - 2015-10-04 09:58:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuronaga
Beldrulf Arbosa wrote:
You can shoot a blaster ship, but you can also use ewar against it. I guess my main complaint is that with drones in their current state, DPS is the only way to take care of them, and Eve has proven to be a game where there are multiple solutions to any problem. I just don't think drone boats shouldn't have to worry about electronic warfare like the rest of the ships in eve.


This is not an argument.

A blaster ship has more HP than a drone. Ergo, a DPS race may prove difficult and this justifies a need for solutions to exist aside from DPS. That makes it part of the balance equation.

A drone has a pitiful amount of HP and dies quickly. Just about any form of damaging weaponry can be used to kill a drone, provided you don't take this to extremes and try to snipe a drone with a capital turret or something. Therefore, there is no need for multiple methods of dealing with it. You always have the "choice" to focus on drones instead of focusing on the ship itself, and some fits are better for it.

Alternative methods of getting around a problem exist when there is a balance reason to justify it. When there is not, you simply end up making a thing bad.


If your true, unspoken concern is that drones appear too effective and are the current meta then allow me to ease your concerns -- they are not too good. They are simply braindead and require minimal player skill to use successfully. Most gamers tend to veer towards the unskilled side of the spectrum, thus making the option of piloting droneboats a popular one.

Given that most EVE players tend to be rather aged, you shouldn't be expecting too many of them to be transversal wizardry gods or anything of the sort. These kind of crutches need to exist for the playerbase to remain happy. Be at peace.
ArmyOfMe
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#18 - 2015-10-04 10:08:24 UTC
Beldrulf Arbosa wrote:
This post is just my opinion on drone mechanics in Eve Online. Feel free to respond to it with your own thoughts.


Problem:

Here's the way I see it, the other weapon systems in eve online can be disrupted in some way or another, almost like shortcuts.

Daredevil's blaster dps is too strong for your little comet to handle? Neut his ass and negate the dps. Shortcut!

Corax's rockets are managing to hit your kiting ship? Tracking disrupt him and reduce his range. Shortcut!

You're trying to kill a vexor, but you cant tank his drones for any significant amount of time, and he has too many spare drones for you to kill all of them? Too bad. Regardless of whether you ECM, neut, TD, or damp that vexor, his drones are still going to be on you.


Proposal:

I think that to reduce the OPness of drones, without killing their usefulness outright, ONE of two things should happen.

1: Drones be made susceptible to various forms of ewar. Anyone who has tried neuting a drone will know that no good comes of it. I think that the ability to neut, jam, TD etc. drones would be helpful in allowing fleets to decrease incoming drone damage at least partially.

2: Add modules aimed at reducing the effectiveness of drones/drone boats. For example, a high slot module that acts as an AOE short range tracking disruptor that only works on drones to reduce their effectiveness? Or maybe a module similar to the standard tracking disruptor for targeted ewar that reduces a ship's bandwidth or drone control range?


Smartbombs, trackingdisruptors, ecm and webs all work against drones, so i really dont see what the issue here is.

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.
Mr Duffo
SQUIDS.
#19 - 2015-10-04 10:17:21 UTC
Beldrulf Arbosa wrote:
You can shoot a blaster ship, but you can also use ewar against it. I guess my main complaint is that with drones in their current state, DPS is the only way to take care of them, and Eve has proven to be a game where there are multiple solutions to any problem. I just don't think drone boats shouldn't have to worry about electronic warfare like the rest of the ships in eve.



You can jam drones. Once evil french men jammed my drones in my worm and I was hopeless against couple t1 frigates with only rockets as dps.

Skeggǫld, Skálmǫld, Skildir ro Klofnir!

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Thorn en Distel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2015-10-04 13:55:54 UTC
ArmyOfMe wrote:
Beldrulf Arbosa wrote:
This post is just my opinion on drone mechanics in Eve Online. Feel free to respond to it with your own thoughts.


Problem:

Here's the way I see it, the other weapon systems in eve online can be disrupted in some way or another, almost like shortcuts.

Daredevil's blaster dps is too strong for your little comet to handle? Neut his ass and negate the dps. Shortcut!

Corax's rockets are managing to hit your kiting ship? Tracking disrupt him and reduce his range. Shortcut!

You're trying to kill a vexor, but you cant tank his drones for any significant amount of time, and he has too many spare drones for you to kill all of them? Too bad. Regardless of whether you ECM, neut, TD, or damp that vexor, his drones are still going to be on you.


Proposal:

I think that to reduce the OPness of drones, without killing their usefulness outright, ONE of two things should happen.

1: Drones be made susceptible to various forms of ewar. Anyone who has tried neuting a drone will know that no good comes of it. I think that the ability to neut, jam, TD etc. drones would be helpful in allowing fleets to decrease incoming drone damage at least partially.

2: Add modules aimed at reducing the effectiveness of drones/drone boats. For example, a high slot module that acts as an AOE short range tracking disruptor that only works on drones to reduce their effectiveness? Or maybe a module similar to the standard tracking disruptor for targeted ewar that reduces a ship's bandwidth or drone control range?


Smartbombs, trackingdisruptors, ecm and webs all work against drones, so i really dont see what the issue here is.


Issue sounds like bringing a knife to a sword fight. Problem stemming either from:
1) insisting only knives are fair play, and that bringing a shield / armor / your own swords is cheating and/or OP
2) not knowing that things like a sword / shield / armor even exist
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