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Nos on Pilgrim/Curse?
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Ahed Sten
#1 - 2015-10-02 17:42:30 UTC
Hi guys,

For a long time now, I've struggled to understand the logic behind fitting a Nos - A module that only transfers cap to you from your opponent if he has a higher cap level than you do - on ships such as the Curse or Pilgrim, which are designed to quickly cap out a ship and keep it there for the duration of the fight.

I think I understand the practicality of Nos when you're fighting more than one ship, as you can leech from whoever's cap you didn't just nuke, but in the context of 1v1 or solo it seems completely pointless to me, yet I continue to see "Solo" Nos fit Curses and Pilgrims. Is Nos just fit as a precaution in the event that a second or third ship shows up, or is there another reason for it?

Anyone willing to explain this to me?
Hochopepa
Creative Research and Production Services
#2 - 2015-10-02 18:40:03 UTC
I use them as precautions though, I don't hesitate to hit it first when engaging a target so that I usually get a little bit of juice right as my neuts kick on.

ALso, it's not ships that have more cap, it's ships that have a higher percentage of their cap available.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#3 - 2015-10-02 18:41:35 UTC
noses used to work like they currently do on bloodraiders ships i.e. broken as all hell.

what we have now are "balanced" ones ... they have their uses on cap hungry brawlers, heavy tackle and ceptors too though

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#4 - 2015-10-02 18:44:13 UTC
Recons have rather small cap pools (an mwd-fitted curse is at T1-cruiser levels of roughly 1.4k, 20% of that is 350, less than a T1 frig or about 10% of a CBC) , so when going for caps or BS, you can leech very, very well. Cheap deadspace NOS got extraordinairy range - allowing you to reduce the number of cap charges consumed over a fight significantly by choosing targets for leeching smartly.

For ganking, neuts are always superior - but their small cargoholds of around 10-11 CB800s make leeching a very attractive alternative to supplement your recharge in any actual fight.
Thron Legacy
White Zulu
Scorpion Federation
#5 - 2015-10-02 19:11:28 UTC
Hochopepa wrote:
I use them as precautions though, I don't hesitate to hit it first when engaging a target so that I usually get a little bit of juice right as my neuts kick on.

ALso, it's not ships that have more cap, it's ships that have a higher percentage of their cap available.

no, its by absolute cap as i know (but im not sure)
Hochopepa
Creative Research and Production Services
#6 - 2015-10-02 19:46:38 UTC
Thron Legacy wrote:
Hochopepa wrote:
I use them as precautions though, I don't hesitate to hit it first when engaging a target so that I usually get a little bit of juice right as my neuts kick on.

ALso, it's not ships that have more cap, it's ships that have a higher percentage of their cap available.

no, its by absolute cap as i know (but im not sure)



You're correct, it is absolute cap # not percentage, sorry, old thinking.
Ahed Sten
#7 - 2015-10-03 02:38:51 UTC
Thanks for the replies everyone, but now I've got a few more questions...

1. So a nos will drain cap from another ship that has more absolute (and not percentage of) cap than you do?

Example: If my curse has 200/1000 GJ (20%) remaining and the enemy ship has 160/500 GJ, (32%) then I will not draw cap because I still have more absolute cap than he does, even though his percentage is higher?

If that is the case, then yes I can see why it would be beneficial to fit nos when fighting larger ships, as the cap pool gets exponentially bigger as you go up in hull size.

2. Is there ever a clear-cut situation (Anti-frig maybe?) when taking another neut is always recommended over a nos? Lloyd mentioned ganks?

Quote:
Recons have rather small cap pools (an mwd-fitted curse is at T1-cruiser levels of roughly 1.4k, 20% of that is 350, less than a T1 frig or about 10% of a CBC) , so when going for caps or BS, you can leech very, very well. Cheap deadspace NOS got extraordinairy range - allowing you to reduce the number of cap charges consumed over a fight significantly by choosing targets for leeching smartly.


Sorry Lloyd - maybe I'm more of a noob than I thought but It would be awesome if you could break this down into simpler language...what does 20% of 1.4k have to do with anything and what exactly is a CBC?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#8 - 2015-10-03 02:53:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Ahed Sten wrote:
Quote:
Recons have rather small cap pools (an mwd-fitted curse is at T1-cruiser levels of roughly 1.4k, 20% of that is 350, less than a T1 frig or about 10% of a CBC) , so when going for caps or BS, you can leech very, very well. Cheap deadspace NOS got extraordinairy range - allowing you to reduce the number of cap charges consumed over a fight significantly by choosing targets for leeching smartly.


Sorry Lloyd - maybe I'm more of a noob than I thought but It would be awesome if you could break this down into simpler language...what does 20% of 1.4k have to do with anything and what exactly is a CBC?


Yeah I might've rushed that part.

While a fight is going on, you're not at 100% cap. When your consuption exceeds your native recharge by quite a margin like on a neuting boat à la Curse, you'll find yourself dropping towards 0 quite quickly. So for extended engagements, it's safer to assume you'll be hovering at low percentages of 20-40% most of the time, injecting cap boosters to sustain your neut output. So your absolute cap will be hovering at roughly 350GJ give or take some.

A CBC (Combat Battlecruiser like Brutix or Harbinger) has a very large pool of 3k GJ or more, meaning that you'll have an easy time leeching off them if they also hover at around 30% of their max capacity. The native recharge is dependent on current percentage of max cap, having its peak at around 25% and dropping down above or below that margin.

A popular example would be a laser legion. They got a cap pool of 3.5k roughly running c3 sites, and those blitzing c2s got around 4.5k albeit regenerating much slower. Both will - while farming - hover at around 40%. PVPfit beam legions might have a cap booster, but will also hover at around 50% of 3k roughly, meaning they're viable targets to leech off.
→ If you gank them, you want to shut down their capacitor immediately to stop their local repairs and guns. Neuts will knock them down near instantly.
→ If you got two running anoms, you can shut down the first while leeching off the second and once the first's been dealt with, switch your neuting power over to the second. Running NOS moves your cap generation from a midslot (tank/EWAR) to a highslot, allowing you to install more mid slot modules for those two areas.
→ pvp engagements with logistics running can take a while. Since you only got the cargohold to ferry charges for a few (3-4) minutes of constant cap injections, supplementing your cap with NOS to alleviate cap issues in the long run on your part is an attractive alternative, and in praxis you can leech off about anything that is your size (Cruiser) or larger.
Ahed Sten
#9 - 2015-10-03 06:19:46 UTC
Thank you Lloyd :)