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The bad mechanics of high sec ganking

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Anthar Thebess
#141 - 2015-10-02 11:00:55 UTC
Use fully tanked DST to transport expensive stuff, and don't put expensive stuff in a freighter.
Check killboard, use proper channels, don't venture to Uedama or Niarja.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Christopher Multsanti
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#142 - 2015-10-02 11:11:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Multsanti
Some of the arguments against a change have been:


  • Bring 20 plus logis every time you want to move a freighter through high sec
  • Don't carry to much stuff in freighters
  • Don't go to 0.5 systems
  • Web your freighter and hope you don't get bumped before it warps
  • The market will collapse if we stop high sec ganking
  • The sandbox as we know it will end if you stop high sec ganking
  • Don't use freighters


Only one of those is really a decent suggestion and is currently being used but, as the video shows in the OP, Grath (one of the leaders in PL) did this and still got ganked. So really, webbing is just down to RNG. That's great game design right there.

Haulers Kill Vagabond!
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#143 - 2015-10-02 11:24:54 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Anthar Thebess wrote:
don't put expensive stuff in a freighter.


That's the worlds biggest myth right now.


You'll be killed for lols/boredom alone.

Use a scout. End of.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#144 - 2015-10-02 11:30:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Christopher Multsanti wrote:

Eve has wars. So not that's not the only threat. Do you know the figures on how many people in NPC corps? I don't.

I can tell you about two-thirds of our targets join npc corps within a day of, if not on the day our wars go live.
I know because I watchlist every damn one of them.

Wardecs are almost voluntary for the purpose for this discussion and more like duel requests en-mass.

You can kill ganking if we can have purchasable killrights, insta live wardecs or something else equally broken because believe it or not ,
ganking in highsec is actually fairly "balanced" I.e. you need to be all kinds of stupid to get ganked more than one.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Black Pedro
Mine.
#145 - 2015-10-02 11:39:25 UTC
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Some of the arguments against a change have been:


  • Bring 20 plus logis every time you want to move a freighter through high sec
  • Don't carry to much stuff in freighters
  • Don't go to 0.5 systems
  • Web your freighter and hope you don't get bumped before it warps
  • The market will collapse if we stop high sec ganking
  • The sandbox as we know it will end if you stop high sec ganking
  • Don't use freighters


Only one of those is really a decent suggestion and is currently being used but, as the video shows in the OP, Grath (one of the leaders in PL) did this and still got ganked. So really, webbing is just down to RNG. That's great game design right there.

Most of those aren't actually arguments against a change. They are (mostly) good advice for reducing the risk that someone will successfully gank your freighter. The ones that are really arguments against, are indeed reasons to proceed carefully: there would be significant effects on the market if you removed suicide ganking, and there would be a significant "hole" in the sandbox where players could isolate themselves from other players.

You still don't seem to get it. You are not suppose to have a 100%, foolproof way to move a freighter from A-to-B safely. You are always intended to be at risk. This is how the game was conceived, how it was designed, and how it was implemented. You will never get a way to be 100% safe in your freighter, at least not as long as CCP Seagull is in charge of development.

There is no problem. Eve is working as intended. Freighter ganking is a feature, not a bug.

CCP has (correctly in my view) decided that maintaining the unique sandbox aspect of the game, and the game play that flows from that like the player-driven economy, outweighs any short-term gains making a certain type of player feel safer would have on their product.

You are wasting your time arguing for a change that has no chance of being implemented.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#146 - 2015-10-02 11:56:55 UTC
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Some of the arguments against a change have been:


  • 1. Bring 20 plus logis every time you want to move a freighter through high sec
  • 2. Don't carry to much stuff in freighters
  • 3. Don't go to 0.5 systems
  • 4. Web your freighter and hope you don't get bumped before it warps
  • 5. The market will collapse if we stop high sec ganking
  • 6. The sandbox as we know it will end if you stop high sec ganking
  • 7. Don't use freighters


Only one of those is really a decent suggestion and is currently being used but, as the video shows in the OP, Grath (one of the leaders in PL) did this and still got ganked. So really, webbing is just down to RNG. That's great game design right there.

1. It's already been pointed out to you, that you merely have to defer some of the dps. As baltic has also said, 3 is enough for this purpose.
2. You can carry as much as you like. The point is if you make yourself a loot piñata and decide not to have friends along to protect you, then you have no grounds to complain when you lose it.
3. Avoiding known gank hot spots is merely common sense. But that doesn't mean you cannot use them with assistance from friends. people move freighters through them all the time.
4. Webbing a freighter almost guarantees you avoid being bumped. The time it takes for a mach to interfere with a freighter, is far longer than it takes to web it into warp. The almost is mainly due to errors, because nothing is or should be guaranteed. Although webbing comes pretty close.
5. Not sure who said that, but Eve does depend upon ships exploding. I guess one could interpret in that way, but I have a feeling you're doing your normal exaggeration repost technique.
6. In a way yes. You want ganking stopped in high sec, that you said yourself. That would most definitely end it there, in regards to ganking as we know it.
7. In many cases the use of other ships is preferable, if solo. But if you need to use a freighter, then you need to accept the risk if you fly it solo.

You don't seem to want to accept any suggestion, whatsoever. You've even modified the OP, kept in the original false premise and added yet more. You don't even apologize when you are wrong.

I'm all for talking about current mechanics and working towards a better solution. If one can be attained. But when the person you're talking to is constantly being disingenuous, what is the point? I mean you btw.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Christopher Multsanti
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#147 - 2015-10-02 12:22:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Multsanti
Black Pedro wrote:
there would be a significant "hole" in the sandbox where players could isolate themselves from other players.


There's a hole in my sandbox, dear Liza, dear Liza,
There's a hole in my sandbox, dear Liza, a hole.

Black Pedro wrote:
You are wasting your time arguing for a change that has no chance of being implemented.


They said that to Obama when he was arguing about gun control in America. Do you think he is going to stop arguing for it? Hell No!

That's right, I am the white Obama. he may not agree with my treatment of Minmitar slaves but I can guarantee you he would agree with my stance on ganking in high sec!

Haulers Kill Vagabond!
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#148 - 2015-10-02 12:26:57 UTC
You were more than happy to argue that you could have 40 guys clear a path for you in low sec and null sec but now half that number in hisec is too hard for you?

You attempt to belittle the arguments for keeping ganking but what was your argument?- not that its too hard to haul. Not that its imbalanced. Not that you dont have options. Oh yeah...it was just cause you didnt like it.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Christopher Multsanti
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#149 - 2015-10-02 12:35:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Multsanti
Daichi Yamato wrote:
You were more than happy to argue that you could have 40 guys clear a path for you in low sec and null sec but now half that number in hisec is too hard for you?

You attempt to belittle the arguments for keeping ganking but what was your argument?- not that its too hard to haul. Not that its imbalanced. Not that you dont have options. Oh yeah...it was just cause you didnt like it.


I am not trying to belittle anyone or anything. Just trying to show why I think the argument is not valid.

I used that argument just to show that you can make sure a path is safe in null sec before you undock a freighter, but, you don't need to move a freighter through gates in null sec anyway, cos, jump briges/jump freighters.

But it is impractical to take a 40 man gang every time you move a freighter in high sec. For congestion and for your mates saying "erm? i'm not going to help you with that boring ****"

Haulers Kill Vagabond!
Woozlez
Hundred Acre Mine Co.
#150 - 2015-10-02 13:36:50 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
Get rid of bumping.

The idea that these big ass ships can collide and harmlessly bounce off each other is just fail.

Even when you call it emergent game play.


Rather than getting rid of it, let bumping do what it should do: Damage the ship that has an AB or Microwarp drive active relative to the mass, sig radius, and speed of the two ships. Then people can bump, but at their own risk.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#151 - 2015-10-02 13:42:16 UTC
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
can you explain the positive affects this would have on the game? specifically the market?



You can make people just as vulnerable in high sec we be revamping the war declaration system. If CCP want's everything destoryable then they can make everyone war deccable.

You assumptions on the effects of the market are pure speculation and no one really knows what would happen to market if gankers had to declare war on those juicy freighter targets. Markets evolve and adapt.


The above argument is focused on removing high sec ganking. If we are talking about updating the mechanics of said ganking. then not much will change at all. But again, who knows.

Also there will be positive effects on player retention if ganking is made fairer and less one sided. Thats a positive for cpp and the game right?


The only threat haulers, miners and mission runners face in highsec comes from gankers.


Eve has wars. So not that's not the only threat. Do you know the figures on how many people in NPC corps? I don't.


Wars are not only easily avoided but also don't work when it comes to piracy. You don't continue to haul multi billion isk loads when under a war dec or take out your bling mission boat.
Christopher Multsanti
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#152 - 2015-10-02 18:52:43 UTC
Mag's wrote:
1. It's already been pointed out to you, that you merely have to defer some of the dps. As baltic has also said, 3 is enough for this purpose.



3 Logis will not get the first cycle applied before your freighter is dead from 40 catalysts.

Haulers Kill Vagabond!
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#153 - 2015-10-02 19:02:42 UTC
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Mag's wrote:
1. It's already been pointed out to you, that you merely have to defer some of the dps. As baltic has also said, 3 is enough for this purpose.



3 Logis will not get the first cycle applied before your freighter is dead from 40 catalysts.

Shield Logi will. Reps land at the beginning of the cycle.

Also, I think you are grossly overestimating how fast destroyers can chew through several hundred thousand HP. A medium armor rep lands in under 5 seconds and reps enough to negate about 2 volleys from a Catalyst... which CAN mean the difference between life or death (I have survived on slimmer margins).

How did you Veterans start?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#154 - 2015-10-02 19:22:39 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Mag's wrote:
1. It's already been pointed out to you, that you merely have to defer some of the dps. As baltic has also said, 3 is enough for this purpose.



3 Logis will not get the first cycle applied before your freighter is dead from 40 catalysts.

Shield Logi will. Reps land at the beginning of the cycle.

Also, I think you are grossly overestimating how fast destroyers can chew through several hundred thousand HP. A medium armor rep lands in under 5 seconds and reps enough to negate about 2 volleys from a Catalyst... which CAN mean the difference between life or death (I have survived on slimmer margins).
He's not interested in facts, Shah. He simply wants ganking in high sec, gone.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Christopher Multsanti
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#155 - 2015-10-02 19:24:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Multsanti
ShahFluffers wrote:
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Mag's wrote:
1. It's already been pointed out to you, that you merely have to defer some of the dps. As baltic has also said, 3 is enough for this purpose.



3 Logis will not get the first cycle applied before your freighter is dead from 40 catalysts.

Shield Logi will. Reps land at the beginning of the cycle.

Also, I think you are grossly overestimating how fast destroyers can chew through several hundred thousand HP. A medium armor rep lands in under 5 seconds and reps enough to negate about 2 volleys from a Catalyst... which CAN mean the difference between life or death (I have survived on slimmer margins).


Did you see the video I posted in the op? 40 catalysts do 28k DPS, I am afraid you are a bit detached from reality if you believe 3 logis will stop a freighter from dieing.

I'll repost it for you. 28k DPS In Action.

It took 12 seconds to take down the first freighter in that vid. So yes, reps will land for one cycle, but it will no difference what so ever.

Haulers Kill Vagabond!
EnacheV2
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2015-10-02 19:29:49 UTC
high sec ganking should be removed completely

this isn't 2004 anymore, time have changed, in order for the game to survive it must adapt
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#157 - 2015-10-02 19:32:32 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Mag's wrote:
1. It's already been pointed out to you, that you merely have to defer some of the dps. As baltic has also said, 3 is enough for this purpose.



3 Logis will not get the first cycle applied before your freighter is dead from 40 catalysts.

Shield Logi will. Reps land at the beginning of the cycle.

Also, I think you are grossly overestimating how fast destroyers can chew through several hundred thousand HP. A medium armor rep lands in under 5 seconds and reps enough to negate about 2 volleys from a Catalyst... which CAN mean the difference between life or death (I have survived on slimmer margins).


1) They will gank the logi

2) 1 more catalyst per logi, gank still happens

3) I've seen freighters bump off-grid from logi, by CODE, before they ganked, in order to break logi.

4) They will continue to bump the freighter for as long as they need to, in order to pull off the gank. I've seen 3 attempts on one target in order to pop them. That's 45 minutes OR MORE of getting bumped. Logi won't help much and/or give up.

5) If they know you've got logi, they will upgrade some of their fleet into BCs, if the gank is worth it or simply for the lulz.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#158 - 2015-10-02 19:34:26 UTC
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
I am not trying to belittle anyone or anything. Just trying to show why I think the argument is not valid.

I used that argument just to show that you can make sure a path is safe in null sec before you undock a freighter, but, you don't need to move a freighter through gates in null sec anyway, cos, jump briges/jump freighters.

But it is impractical to take a 40 man gang every time you move a freighter in high sec. For congestion and for your mates saying "erm? i'm not going to help you with that boring ****"


Repeating yourself for pages and pages while ignoring what people say isn't showing why you think an argument is invalid.

Direct question, should any ship in HS be allowed to be ganked and why?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#159 - 2015-10-02 19:41:08 UTC
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
As the title states this is a suggestion for updating the mechanics of high sec ganking specifically looking at the current absurd situation that allows freighters to be ganked in high sec without the ability to defend yourself even if you have a support fleet including logis.

In null/low sec space you can make sure there are no neutral/hostiles on the travel route of your freighter before you even undock it. You cannot do that in high sec space.

In null/low sec you can actively engage and kill any neutral/hostiles on your travel route before they engage you. You cannot do that in high sec space.

In high sec space you need to have your freighter be attacked before you can protect it. Again, not the case in null/low sec.

Even if you do everything right (do not auto pilot and triple web your freighter) you can still die without having the ability to defend yourself even with a support fleet including logis

Just ask Grath The Meta Show @ 25:20.

Preemptive counter arguments:

Concord is a deterrent only they are not there to protect you from people
A: Things change. Geddons used to be able to fit 8 heat sinks, Domis used to have 15 heavy drones, Concord used to be a deterrent, See how easy it is to change things.

People will just move stuff in NPC corps and won't be vulnerable at all
A: I have a few ideas on how to fix this but am open to suggestions.

Dude, don't auto pilot your freighter and you won't get ganked!
A: Manually piloting and triple webbing your freighter won't always save you, see above link

I have never lost a freighter in x number of years hauling stuff in empire, you people are just doing it wrong
A: You're just lucky, it will happen to you at some point

LOLOLOL You just got ganked in high sec, How much did you lose???
A: I can't fly freighters on any of my characters

And so you understand the situation, Enjoy the ganks

Let the freighter flames begin.


TLDR: You cannot stop your freighter from being ganked by a bumping mach and 40 catalysts even if you have a support fleet including logis to defend you.

TLDR Part 2: You may be able to stay safe if you web your freighter into warp but that is down to RNGesus.


Then move to null/low sec. Problem solved.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#160 - 2015-10-02 19:44:04 UTC
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
As the title states this is a suggestion for updating the mechanics of high sec ganking specifically looking at the current absurd situation that allows freighters to be ganked in high sec without the ability to defend yourself even if you have a support fleet including logis.

In null/low sec space you can make sure there are no neutral/hostiles on the travel route of your freighter before you even undock it. You cannot do that in high sec space.

In null/low sec you can actively engage and kill any neutral/hostiles on your travel route before they engage you. You cannot do that in high sec space.

In high sec space you need to have your freighter be attacked before you can protect it. Again, not the case in null/low sec.

Even if you do everything right (do not auto pilot and triple web your freighter) you can still die without having the ability to defend yourself even with a support fleet including logis

Just ask Grath The Meta Show @ 25:20.

Preemptive counter arguments:

Concord is a deterrent only they are not there to protect you from people
A: Things change. Geddons used to be able to fit 8 heat sinks, Domis used to have 15 heavy drones, Concord used to be a deterrent, See how easy it is to change things.

People will just move stuff in NPC corps and won't be vulnerable at all
A: I have a few ideas on how to fix this but am open to suggestions.

Dude, don't auto pilot your freighter and you won't get ganked!
A: Manually piloting and triple webbing your freighter won't always save you, see above link

I have never lost a freighter in x number of years hauling stuff in empire, you people are just doing it wrong
A: You're just lucky, it will happen to you at some point

LOLOLOL You just got ganked in high sec, How much did you lose???
A: I can't fly freighters on any of my characters

And so you understand the situation, Enjoy the ganks

Let the freighter flames begin.


TLDR: You cannot stop your freighter from being ganked by a bumping mach and 40 catalysts even if you have a support fleet including logis to defend you.

TLDR Part 2: You may be able to stay safe if you web your freighter into warp but that is down to RNGesus.


Oh, and ever thought of shooting the bumping ship? No bumper, no gank. And here is a secret bumping ships fit for speed/agility more than tank. Typical token tank is a Damage Control II and large shield extender. Warp in with a bunch of catalysts, bone the bumper, have your freighter fly through waving the middle finger in local.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online