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Wardec thoughts

Author
OverlordY
Interspan
#21 - 2015-10-01 14:56:54 UTC
The war system is a badly abused mechanic, even more so that most other things in eve...

Having played this game since just after beta, over 12 years ago , iv seen how much the dec system is abused.

Bored griefer? -
Look down local and find a mining corp, WAR DEC it and LOL at the easy kills..

Seen someone you don't like? -
WAR DEC - Grief them till they quit EVE Fun this isn't it....

Want a better looking killboard? -
Check local chat for a indy corp - WAR DEC - and lol at those expensive ships you managed to 10v1..

Might actually lose this 1v1? -
Bring in your neutral NPC corp remote repair ship and win the battle.. And it won't show on the mail so you will look super awesome.....

Someone had the balls to TALK in local?
WAR DEC ...

It has to end , it's driving people away.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#22 - 2015-10-01 15:13:16 UTC
Broodin wrote:
This is the basis for my thoughts in summary. For those who claim to love the pvp why is there an aversion to letting sproutling corps get a foothold and grow if only to provide a larger spectrum of targets later on. Ultimately yes ccp and the community love the pvp sandbox but it is not absolute, hence the existence of concord. Ingraining a way for corps to safely get a foothold and develop some structure and teamwork before being engaged by larger and more established groups doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
Wardecs are not going anywhere. CCP is clearly maintaining them as the only way to attack a structure in highsec. If you want to use a structure you will have to defend them from wardecs. Simple as that.

Now that said, I am all for new social mechanisms where those who don't actually want to compete, or who are just starting out to join a corporation-like social group. You should be able to tune your risk in this game and if you just want to dip your toes in the sandbox, it should be possible. In fact, I think it likely CCP will release such a mechanism.

Such a mechanism will allow friends just to form a social group, or give a new corporation a chance to grow while still respecting risk vs. reward.

But wardecs against proper player corps with in-space assets? They are here to stay.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
WE FORM BL0B
#23 - 2015-10-01 15:24:16 UTC
No Lube ForU wrote:
Lol mercs. You mean the players who sit on the undock or camp the pipes ?

My mains corp and alliance got decced by the 3 biggest mercs in eve.
Not once did they come to low or null for us. I thought if ya paid a real merc they would actually hunt you down ?

o/


You don't go to the hub or pipes. 90% of people, however, do. Given the choice between maybe killing a few guys for one client and none for anyone else, or killing many for many clients and none for only one, it makes sense to camp. HTH.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-10-01 15:31:24 UTC
And all this comes to an issue I am pushing for. Make war decs system based. Base cost for lowsec so players can pirate hunt without the hit. Then highsec you select systems, regions and constellations with price based on per system services and occupancy. Can war dec still, lower cost for new players to establish small corp wars, much higher cost to do a full highsec grief. Want an rvb fight? If made mutual, dec goes global and is base cost to maintain.


Ta da! Win for everybody except people who only want to grief. Bad for business that is.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#25 - 2015-10-01 17:39:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Vol Arm'OOO
Broodin wrote:
Just as a musing from a newer player to eve, why does the wardec system function as it does? Most of the wardecs I have seen are oversized corps and alliances decing smaller corps and the system seems horribly imbalanced in favor of the megacorps and griefing alliances. Curious as to why there isn't either an opt out or even a 5 billion/month limit 100 member/corp neutrality license that smaller corps can get to shield themselves from being bullied by larger corps.


War decs are horribly broken. It is so easy to dodge a war dec that the only people who fight them are those who are ignorant of the means to avoid the dec (generally newer players) and those who are looking for pvp. In other words, participating in a war dec is almost wholly a consensual act. BTW its big alliances that suffer the most under war decs since it is not easy for them to dodge the decs in the usual manner (dropping corp, staying docked while playing on an alt, etc. . . ).

BTW if you really want to grief a corp that has war dec you - create a safe spot then go all cloaky afk on them. They will see you in system and see that you are online but will be unable to locate you. It drives them crazy.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.

Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#26 - 2015-10-01 17:42:56 UTC
OverlordY wrote:
The war system is a badly abused mechanic, even more so that most other things in eve...

Having played this game since just after beta, over 12 years ago , iv seen how much the dec system is abused.

Bored griefer? -
Look down local and find a mining corp, WAR DEC it and LOL at the easy kills..

Seen someone you don't like? -
WAR DEC - Grief them till they quit EVE Fun this isn't it....

Want a better looking killboard? -
Check local chat for a indy corp - WAR DEC - and lol at those expensive ships you managed to 10v1..

Might actually lose this 1v1? -
Bring in your neutral NPC corp remote repair ship and win the battle.. And it won't show on the mail so you will look super awesome.....

Someone had the balls to TALK in local?
WAR DEC ...

It has to end , it's driving people away.


Hardly. Its more like - see a likely corp for a war dec, spend 200mil isk, for the privilege of shooting them, then watch them go afk for a week, or watch them all quit corp and join an npc corp (only to join their old corp after a week), or watch them tear down their pos in the 24 hr before the dec goes online, etc. . .

In short war decs are consensual.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.

OverlordY
Interspan
#27 - 2015-10-01 17:57:05 UTC
200 mill? Its 50 mill to dec. That is pocket change for even newish players.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-10-01 18:19:49 UTC
Progressively reduce highsec to 50 systems or less. A 'training wheels' area (nerf rewards, eliminate incursions, etc.). Keep suicide ganking as today.

Allow sov-holding alliances to create pockets of highsec (CONCORD) in null. Freely set taxes, compete against other alliances to attract miners, industrialists, mission runners, etc. Suicide ganking still possible ofc.

Now, instead of attacking highsec players (the 'civilians'), you are free to attack the sov-holding alliance that 'harbors' them (the 'government' and 'military').


Then just eliminate wardecs, they'd be useless.


EVE fixed. Big smile

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#29 - 2015-10-01 19:40:37 UTC
OverlordY wrote:
200 mill? Its 50 mill to dec. That is pocket change for even newish players.


I'm pretty sure they changed it so it scales - the bigger the target the higher the dec fees.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.

La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#30 - 2015-10-01 19:48:49 UTC
just take a certain group of wusses and look at it:
the whple alliance does not own a structure...
just allow wars between entities that owns structures.
imagine how it would be if codies had own poses...
mercs would be payed to take jimmy and his braindead cronies stations down.
the risk of a ganker?
certainly not the ship, which is written of to be destroyed by concorde, the moment it gets fitted.

so codies for eg have nothing to loose, so there is no risk anywhere, except for the risk to fail completly.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."

Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#31 - 2015-10-01 19:52:15 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
OverlordY wrote:
200 mill? Its 50 mill to dec. That is pocket change for even newish players.


I'm pretty sure they changed it so it scales - the bigger the target the higher the dec fees.

Yes, though the vast majority of Wardecs are 50 million:

Eve Wiki wrote:
It costs 50 million isk, plus an additional cost for each member in the target corporation/alliance above 51. It will now start to increase with the 51st member and reach the ceiling of 500 million ISK at 2000 members.

That doesn't mean wardec fees are small overall though. The most active group currently, P I R A T, have about 200 concurrent wars and declare war on small and large groups, so they pay on the order of 10 Billion ISK per week in fees.
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-10-01 19:59:35 UTC
10 bil for 200 wars?
best example for wardecc abuse.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."

Paranoid Loyd
#33 - 2015-10-01 20:02:09 UTC
Sigh, three days and we already have to get back on this merry-go-round? Straight

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#34 - 2015-10-01 20:07:43 UTC
In my experience as a CEO, if you are getting lots of wardecs, it is because you or your members are doing stupid stuff that invites wardecs.
Milleonia Brundor
Vanks
#35 - 2015-10-01 20:50:09 UTC
OverlordY wrote:
The war system is a badly abused mechanic, even more so that most other things in eve...

Having played this game since just after beta, over 12 years ago , iv seen how much the dec system is abused.

Bored griefer? -
Look down local and find a mining corp, WAR DEC it and LOL at the easy kills..

Seen someone you don't like? -
WAR DEC - Grief them till they quit EVE Fun this isn't it....

Want a better looking killboard? -
Check local chat for a indy corp - WAR DEC - and lol at those expensive ships you managed to 10v1..

Might actually lose this 1v1? -
Bring in your neutral NPC corp remote repair ship and win the battle.. And it won't show on the mail so you will look super awesome.....

Someone had the balls to TALK in local?
WAR DEC ...

It has to end , it's driving people away.

you're wrong, go biomass.
Marech Bhayanaka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2015-10-01 23:18:17 UTC
Broodin wrote:
Just as a musing from a newer player to eve, why does the wardec system function as it does? Most of the wardecs I have seen are oversized corps and alliances decing smaller corps and the system seems horribly imbalanced in favor of the megacorps and griefing alliances. Curious as to why there isn't either an opt out or even a 5 billion/month limit 100 member/corp neutrality license that smaller corps can get to shield themselves from being bullied by larger corps.


Take your 5 billion isk and hire a mercenary oufit to do some damage to the war deccers. Thery are looking for soft targets. Don't be one.

Marech.
Marech Bhayanaka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2015-10-01 23:21:13 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Sigh, three days and we already have to get back on this merry-go-round? Straight

No, you do not have to. It appears though that you have chosen to.

Marech.
Broodin
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2015-10-01 23:21:25 UTC
Some are taking this out of context. The pvp sandbox works fine, the gankings while somtimes irritating are an integral part of the game. My only quip about the system as a whole is that the wardec system is imbalanced toward favoring the large. Given that most here, and I am quickly adapting, greatly enjoy things is not in question and I am not suggesting that wardecs be done away with. What I am suggesting is that the system for wardecs could be adapted to make small social groups have a fair chance to exist even if there are tight limitations on member numbers or restrictions on structures put in place.

Most of the responses seem to lean on either going to null sec or quitting the game, thats not the way to look at new players who, even in groups, lack the skills and experience to survive an attack from a skilled player in a level 2 destroyer let alone a wardec from an established corp. Creating the option of building a lower tier corp, more aimed at new players and social functionality rather than hardcore pvp is not unreasonable. Look at it this way, a good number of those who are new to the game may start out in a corp like this rather than the spam and troll filled npc corps, but many will move toward the higher end corps once they have some skill points and flying time logged. Groups of players will likely move past the starter corp phase, giving root and a foundation for newcomers to challenge the status quo and create epic battles. Even for the people that never leave the carebear corps, it creates more life and a larger target pool for you gank lovers and a good source of potential recruits for the tier 1 corps.

Ultimately making the game more accessible to rookies without watering down the actual game content benefits everyone, even if you live in null and never see any of them, ccp would have a larger pool of subscribers to R+D the parts of the game you personally love.
Salvos Rhoska
#39 - 2015-10-01 23:25:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Protip: Compare it to Trollceptors.

Profit
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#40 - 2015-10-02 07:02:21 UTC
No Lube ForU wrote:
Lol mercs. You mean the players who sit on the undock or camp the pipes ?

My mains corp and alliance got decced by the 3 biggest mercs in eve.
Not once did they come to low or null for us. I thought if ya paid a real merc they would actually hunt you down ?

o/
This is kinda the point. You know what you are doing so they don;t attack you. People who are newer, less experienced or just bad are their targets, because thy are just as risk averse as those they cry about. It would be great if people pushed themselves for a challenge, but it just doesn't happen, so they same groups of people mass farm noobs day in and day out to give them something to pat themselves on the back for. This is where CCP needs to step in and force risk/reward.

Black Pedro wrote:
Wardecs are not going anywhere. CCP is clearly maintaining them as the only way to attack a structure in highsec. If you want to use a structure you will have to defend them from wardecs. Simple as that.

Now that said, I am all for new social mechanisms where those who don't actually want to compete, or who are just starting out to join a corporation-like social group. You should be able to tune your risk in this game and if you just want to dip your toes in the sandbox, it should be possible. In fact, I think it likely CCP will release such a mechanism.

Such a mechanism will allow friends just to form a social group, or give a new corporation a chance to grow while still respecting risk vs. reward.

But wardecs against proper player corps with in-space assets? They are here to stay.
Agree on all points. I imagine this is how CCP will play it long term. Effectively breaking down corporations into tiers so that there's levels of risk rather than the all or nothing plunge there is now.

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