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The end of Hybrid buff
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ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#381 - 2012-01-05 02:07:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ElCholo
Another win for the Gallente ships!

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12054016

You may have to copy and paste since Eve-O sucks for linking.

You will notice that our one loss was also taking sentry fire for all of you nay sayers who will cry wolf that we only engaged when the other side is under sentry fire. :)
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#382 - 2012-01-05 03:00:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Fade Azura
[/quote]Another win for the Gallente ships!

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12054016

You may have to copy and paste since Eve-O sucks for linking.

You will notice that our one loss was also taking sentry fire for all of you nay sayers who will cry wolf that we only engaged when the other side is under sentry fire. :)[/quote]


lol cmon man you got 4 gallente ships in a 9 man fleet in the killmail and one is a logi and one died because his blasters forced him into range so he can be tackled back most likely causing the loss .... far cry from a gallente fleet and it was not a victory for gallente in the least. take a 20-30 man fleet of 90% gallente ships and beat an equal blob of drakes or canes or something and then you might be able to try and pass those off as any kind of proof or representation of gallente in general. and i think we both know that is not going to happen until railguns are better or equal to arties. blasters will never be a fleet weapon as long as their range remains where it is at.

Honestly are all you guys trolling or what? rofl i have never seen so much pathetic examples or claims that are so easily contradicted in my life anywhere.. either all you guys saying that gallente are all right are all trolling or you have some monetary(isk) reason for the influence you are trying to push on here. im guessing its a combination of both or maybe its just you guys all were apparently dropped on your heads as babies .... and are complete e-tards.

anyhow feel free to keep trying to say gallente is fine and i will be there to tell you that you are wrong and a moron and prove it to you in a variety of diffrent ways. Gallente is broken as a race in this game .... BROKEN. and it needs to be fixed.

with that being said i applaud the efforts of anyone attempting to pvp in gang scenario's with a majority of gallente ships as it adds much needed diversity to the pvp in this game and shows skill for overcoming the obvious drawbacks of gallente.
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#383 - 2012-01-05 03:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Fade Azura
Double post
Jask Avan
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#384 - 2012-01-05 03:21:35 UTC
I actually don't think Gallente ships are so terrible now. Just the arguments here seem terrible. (I think they're still slightly too niche though.)
Such as the last link. Tornadoes that are terribly fit for smaller brawlers suck against smaller brawlers. News at 11.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#385 - 2012-01-05 03:36:53 UTC
Fade Azura wrote:


lol cmon man you got 4 gallente ships in a 9 man fleet in the killmail and one is a logi and one died because his blasters forced him into range so he can be tackled back most likely causing the loss .... far cry from a gallente fleet and it was not a victory for gallente in the least. take a 20-30 man fleet of 90% gallente ships and beat an equal blob of drakes or canes or something and then you might be able to try and pass those off as any kind of proof or representation of gallente in general. and i think we both know that is not going to happen until railguns are better or equal to arties. blasters will never be a fleet weapon as long as their range remains where it is at.

Honestly are all you guys trolling or what? rofl i have never seen so much pathetic examples or claims that are so easily contradicted in my life anywhere.. either all you guys saying that gallente are all right are all trolling or you have some monetary(isk) reason for the influence you are trying to push on here. im guessing its a combination of both or maybe its just you guys all were apparently dropped on your heads as babies .... and are complete e-tards.

anyhow feel free to keep trying to say gallente is fine and i will be there to tell you that you are wrong and a moron and prove it to you in a variety of diffrent ways. Gallente is broken as a race in this game .... BROKEN. and it needs to be fixed.

with that being said i applaud the efforts of anyone attempting to pvp in gang scenario's with a majority of gallente ships as it adds much needed diversity to the pvp in this game and shows skill for overcoming the obvious drawbacks of gallente.


You'll notice that all of the ships are using short range guns. Thus, all the Gallente are fighting at brawling range. The Ashimuu could just as easily be replaced Vigilants. We've already gon over why the SFI is there. As far as my claims. All I've done so far is post actual results while you and yours have only been able to say "LOL YOU TROLL" without bringing any actual argument to your side that was anything more than theory crafting. Results > EFTWhoring. However, I applaud your efforts to claim I am wrong by virtue of "LOLTROLL".

Feel free to keep crying troll and we will continue to show results, actual results and not eftcrafting. I'm sure that those who actually play the game will take results over "LOLTROLL"ing.

Gallente is a viable option for fleets. Even armor Gallente. As you can see by our one loss, we are armor tanking them against "OMGWTFOPMINMATAR" and winning. We are catching "nano" fleets by out flying them and out smarting them. Minmatar is not OP. Gallente is not terribad. Terrible players who fly terribly in Gallente are terrible. It's unfortunately that in today's day and age of "I deserve everything", people would rather scream for the game to be made easier than to actually learn to play it on a level above the terrible trolls.

Undock and fly crazy. You never know, you might just cease being terrible.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#386 - 2012-01-05 03:41:40 UTC
Jask Avan wrote:
I actually don't think Gallente ships are so terrible now. Just the arguments here seem terrible. (I think they're still slightly too niche though.)
Such as the last link. Tornadoes that are terribly fit for smaller brawlers suck against smaller brawlers. News at 11.


I enjoy how people will constantly claim one thing and then when presented evidence to the contrary, they will dismiss the evidence saying, "Well of course that, but not so and so." They will continue to do this no matter how much evidence is presented, ad nauseum.

However, I will continue to fly Gallente and continue to present evidence, actual in game proof, that Gallente are good. Eventually, all scenarios will be covered and what will be left are the trolls and their complete lack of actual game experience screaming some other insane gibberish.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#387 - 2012-01-05 03:45:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Jask Avan wrote:
I actually don't think Gallente ships are so terrible now. Just the arguments here seem terrible. (I think they're still slightly too niche though.)
Such as the last link. Tornadoes that are terribly fit for smaller brawlers suck against smaller brawlers. News at 11.


The Tornado fleet had at least twice as many logis and they Tornados should have been able to disperse far enough that they would be able to lay the hurt on the Diemosts. I mean seriously, that's a really solid Minmatar centric gang they had going on there. Hell, the Tornado is one of the prime examples people are using of Minmatar being OP - and here we have a smaller gang with less logi support dominating it and people are like "lol news at 11".

Maybe its not your intention and this has been your "line in the sand" all along, but this to me stinks of shifting goalposts - if for no other reason than it comes from the forum community "at large".

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#388 - 2012-01-05 04:27:09 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
Fade Azura wrote:


lol cmon man you got 4 gallente ships in a 9 man fleet in the killmail and one is a logi and one died because his blasters forced him into range so he can be tackled back most likely causing the loss .... far cry from a gallente fleet and it was not a victory for gallente in the least. take a 20-30 man fleet of 90% gallente ships and beat an equal blob of drakes or canes or something and then you might be able to try and pass those off as any kind of proof or representation of gallente in general. and i think we both know that is not going to happen until railguns are better or equal to arties. blasters will never be a fleet weapon as long as their range remains where it is at.

Honestly are all you guys trolling or what? rofl i have never seen so much pathetic examples or claims that are so easily contradicted in my life anywhere.. either all you guys saying that gallente are all right are all trolling or you have some monetary(isk) reason for the influence you are trying to push on here. im guessing its a combination of both or maybe its just you guys all were apparently dropped on your heads as babies .... and are complete e-tards.

anyhow feel free to keep trying to say gallente is fine and i will be there to tell you that you are wrong and a moron and prove it to you in a variety of diffrent ways. Gallente is broken as a race in this game .... BROKEN. and it needs to be fixed.

with that being said i applaud the efforts of anyone attempting to pvp in gang scenario's with a majority of gallente ships as it adds much needed diversity to the pvp in this game and shows skill for overcoming the obvious drawbacks of gallente.


You'll notice that all of the ships are using short range guns. Thus, all the Gallente are fighting at brawling range. The Ashimuu could just as easily be replaced Vigilants. We've already gon over why the SFI is there. As far as my claims. All I've done so far is post actual results while you and yours have only been able to say "LOL YOU TROLL" without bringing any actual argument to your side that was anything more than theory crafting. Results > EFTWhoring. However, I applaud your efforts to claim I am wrong by virtue of "LOLTROLL".

Feel free to keep crying troll and we will continue to show results, actual results and not eftcrafting. I'm sure that those who actually play the game will take results over "LOLTROLL"ing.

Gallente is a viable option for fleets. Even armor Gallente. As you can see by our one loss, we are armor tanking them against "OMGWTFOPMINMATAR" and winning. We are catching "nano" fleets by out flying them and out smarting them. Minmatar is not OP. Gallente is not terribad. Terrible players who fly terribly in Gallente are terrible. It's unfortunately that in today's day and age of "I deserve everything", people would rather scream for the game to be made easier than to actually learn to play it on a level above the terrible trolls.

Undock and fly crazy. You never know, you might just cease being terrible.


i do not believe you are a troll elcholo and the fact you are trying to bring gallente back into the mix of fleet warfare is a noble task that only the most daring pilots could hope to bring into fruition. i applaud your efforts i truly do. but in the end the truth will win out.

with that being said your killmails are not showing me any proof of gallente viability for fleet warfare .... you may think you have some kinda legitimate claim but as of yet i have not seen that from the killmails you showed me ... and the fact that gallente ships only represent about 5% of the active pvp ships as per the statistics in eve says a little more then ... gallente isnt terribad or learn to fly your ship nonsense.....

and the fact we have ongoing changes being made to how hybrids and their ships work as confirmed by the dev's is only showing your detachment from the reality that gallente ships are sub-par compared to other races ships for fleet warfare PVP and PVE.otherwise we wouldnt be in this thread discussing it. you can try to prove it to your hearts content but unless you show me a large gallente fleet (at least 20 ships dude) made up of at least 80% gallente defeating a similar or larger fleet of drakes or matari hulls then a few small gang fights doesnt prove anything.

gallente have always been good at 1v1 scenarios where people do not attempt to kite. and small gang warfare surrounding gates and stations. this is not representative of the majority of the pvp in eve ... in fact it is a gallente teardrop in the bucket so to speak as far as representing fleet warfare. i do enjoy you posting your killmails and attempting to interpret your perspective. but to me it does not represent any kind of proof or validity. not yet at least .... but we are all entitled to our own opinions.

and if somehow you show me the light of your claims and prove it to the community to the point were gallente ships actually have some kind of representation on killboards and the community starts using them again. then i will be the first to congratulate you for your works. and will gladly say i was wrong .... i do not believe that day will come my friend. good luck.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#389 - 2012-01-05 04:41:17 UTC
Fade Azura wrote:

Rambling


And it is folks like you that will keep flying the ships of lemmings, obeying mindlessly what terrible FCs tell them are good fits. Never braving to venture out to true pvp prowess that separates the lemming from the pvper who will win no matter what ships he flies, be it FOTM or whatever terribad ship is being QQd about on the forums.

Dare to be something other than a lemming.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#390 - 2012-01-05 04:45:23 UTC
Fade Azura wrote:
and the fact that gallente ships only represent about 5% of the active pvp ships as per the statistics in eve says a little more then ... gallente isnt terribad or learn to fly your ship nonsense.....


Where did you get this statistic? How often is it updated? How accurate is it and does blob warfare override small gang warfare there (such as when 100 maelstroms are on 1 maelstrom kill...)?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#391 - 2012-01-05 04:45:29 UTC
II don't think ElCholo is trying to convince everyone that Gallente are going to pwn at 100+ aside alphafests. Your argument that long range arty fleets duking it out will dominate over blasterboats simply because you can't get blasterboats to <5km on every target as fast as you can with arty....well, true.

But most small gang and small fleet (10-20...30?) actions are also often dominated by range-nano-arty AKA Minmatar compositions. Your Deimos will pack 45K EHP, so you need around 6 Tornados to alpha it and instapop with 1400's - and 17s to reload. This would appear to be what happened - one Deimos got instapopped because the FC always calls Deimos primary, especially if your logi's hold cloak a second or two longer. All I see from that battle report is one Deimos being instapopped, and then a bunch of the Tornados dying while their guns reloaded, because the FC underestimated how quickly they'd get run down by the Deimos. 2100m/s without a Loki T3 booster...

So, for a gang of 10, with 6 Tornados to alpha the enemy, tackle+webs, and 2 logi's...well, you'd think that this would be autmatic winbutton. You can scale it up as much as you want on the Minnie side and the FOTM alpha doctrine apparently works seamlessly up to 1000 a side. But on the Gallente side the whole thing falls apart as you say, when there's 100 a side, and bigger logi firewalls.

So you are basically arguing that Gallente fail at fleet warfare, when the evidence and arguments before you are that they don't fail at small gang and small fleet warfare. Therefore, you're arguing at cross purposes to ElCholo and can put a sock in it.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#392 - 2012-01-05 05:09:58 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
Fade Azura wrote:

Rambling


And it is folks like you that will keep flying the ships of lemmings, obeying mindlessly what terrible FCs tell them are good fits. Never braving to venture out to true pvp prowess that separates the lemming from the pvper who will win no matter what ships he flies, be it FOTM or whatever terribad ship is being QQd about on the forums.

Dare to be something other than a lemming.


yes me and 90% of eve apparently according to you. you come off as if gallente were always fine for fleets and everyone is a noob ... and we are all doing it wrong i guess and the popular ships are there for no reason everyone is not using gallente hulls in fleets is because we all suck so bad..and never learned how to properly pilot our own ships. hmmm maybe you should tell that to the 30,000 other active players in this game maybe they will all get in gallente hulls and fly balls out into the wind SCREAMING I AM YOUR DADDY ************! .

in the end its looking like your trying to prove you can work with a bad system .... just because you can still ride a bike with a flat tire doesnt make it a good thing!
Jask Avan
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#393 - 2012-01-05 05:21:22 UTC
Goddammit forums. Short rewrite.

As I said, I think Gallente are almost fine. Shoulda stated that in my first post. Still probably won't see them in blob numbers unless railfits somehow get popular due to blaster range.
As for example, Tornadoes fight ships they're designed to be weak against and not fitted to be good against. Just doesn't seem like a good example to me. I'm not arguing against the ships, just the example.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#394 - 2012-01-05 05:22:10 UTC
Fade Azura wrote:

in the end its looking like your trying to prove you can work with a bad system .... just because you can still ride a bike with a flat tire doesnt make it a good thing!


Except that I am not "trying" to prove my point. I "am" proving my point. Your analogy about the bike is missing the fact that the bike with a flat tire is beating the rest of the bikes. Which would make the bike with the flat tire superior and thus proving my point.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#395 - 2012-01-05 06:11:09 UTC
Jask Avan wrote:
Goddammit forums. Short rewrite.

As I said, I think Gallente are almost fine. Shoulda stated that in my first post. Still probably won't see them in blob numbers unless railfits somehow get popular due to blaster range.
As for example, Tornadoes fight ships they're designed to be weak against and not fitted to be good against. Just doesn't seem like a good example to me. I'm not arguing against the ships, just the example.


I understand where you are coming from but it's not like we chose that fight for those reasons. We chose it because they were there. We chose all of our fights.... because they were there. We are fighting typical fleets you will find out roaming or gate camping. You can look us up and see we've engaged others and won, though they weren't as nice as those fights.

Your comment makes it sound like my point is invalid because our fleet could of course beat that setup. However, that setup is a typical setup that is being used right now which makes our fleet a good counter for it. It also shows that Gallente are a good race to fly to counter typical fleets being used these days.
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#396 - 2012-01-05 06:30:21 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
II don't think ElCholo is trying to convince everyone that Gallente are going to pwn at 100+ aside alphafests. Your argument that long range arty fleets duking it out will dominate over blasterboats simply because you can't get blasterboats to <5km on every target as fast as you can with arty....well, true.

But most small gang and small fleet (10-20...30?) actions are also often dominated by range-nano-arty AKA Minmatar compositions. Your Deimos will pack 45K EHP, so you need around 6 Tornados to alpha it and instapop with 1400's - and 17s to reload. This would appear to be what happened - one Deimos got instapopped because the FC always calls Deimos primary, especially if your logi's hold cloak a second or two longer. All I see from that battle report is one Deimos being instapopped, and then a bunch of the Tornados dying while their guns reloaded, because the FC underestimated how quickly they'd get run down by the Deimos. 2100m/s without a Loki T3 booster...

So, for a gang of 10, with 6 Tornados to alpha the enemy, tackle+webs, and 2 logi's...well, you'd think that this would be autmatic winbutton. You can scale it up as much as you want on the Minnie side and the FOTM alpha doctrine apparently works seamlessly up to 1000 a side. But on the Gallente side the whole thing falls apart as you say, when there's 100 a side, and bigger logi firewalls.

So you are basically arguing that Gallente fail at fleet warfare, when the evidence and arguments before you are that they don't fail at small gang and small fleet warfare. Therefore, you're arguing at cross purposes to ElCholo and can put a sock in it.



you are quite correct sir thanks for pointing it out. the arguing was pretty pointless as i dont disagree gallente are decent in small gang scenario's. but they still have issues with large fleet fits that need to be addressed for pvp and pve.
rampro
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#397 - 2012-01-05 13:49:46 UTC  |  Edited by: rampro
Fade Azura wrote:
rampro wrote:
ahh ok

I just jump cloned for nowt / sigh



hey man that was a very nice kill with that vexor =) we actually killed that same guy about an hour before your talos kill and i saw your killmail on him when i was checking out the killmails for the night and remembered that specific killmail as i found it showed some skill and caught my attention(beating a bigger and better ship against the odds) i am guessing you just got under his guns and orbited him at like 500 so his guns couldnt track you? and the rest is history i guess. anyhow good to see a vexor being piloted skillfully as it is not a common sight these days.

i did some basic intel on you after i seen that killmail(sorry it piqued my interest) seen that you lost a very shiny cynabal(on purpose)in early december recently as a farewell and you were gunna quit or something? I hope you stay on man and continue to produce killmail gems like that talos. would be a shame to see you leave.


thanks dude , yeah I quit for 2 weeks lol.

Had some studying to do but could not leave eve for good.

If only I had not done that with all my stuff :D

Vexor was 1600 scram and TD fit , talos couldnt get past the shields

On to the talos , id rather have a cane still 100% of the time , the only thing that would make the talos better is a sig rad reduction or a 20% hp buff imho.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#398 - 2012-01-05 14:05:43 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Kush Monster wrote:
The only pissing and moaning that I hear about blasters has been on the forums mostly from carebears.

every pirate or PVPer that I've talked to will never say their blasters suck. sure they'd love another buff but come on. Get within optimal and a blaster will tear you to shreds.




Lol, fail. When was the last time carebears used blasters? The whinning come from vet pvpers who trained blasters before Gallante got nerfed. New pvpers go Winmatar from the beginning.

Oh, btw, blasters suck.Lol

Gallente Battleship V and Large Blaster Specialization IV crew checking in;
though, I also have Large Artillery Specialization IV and Minmatar Battleship V.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#399 - 2012-01-05 15:11:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
ElCholo wrote:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12054016

You may have to copy and paste since Eve-O sucks for linking.

You will notice that our one loss was also taking sentry fire for all of you nay sayers who will cry wolf that we only engaged when the other side is under sentry fire. :)



1- Gate fight

2- Incompetent FC

3- Terribly fitted Tornados for gate fights unless they're the ones at 70+ sniping

Excellent example how bad some self proclaimed FC's are and how it's easy to suicide your fleet with one of those.

I mean, c'mon guys, it's low sec, there's no bomb running... you run your fleet in to some gate fight at brawlers range while all you have to do is post your fleet at sniping range align to celestial/pos/bm and wait they come thrum to pop them like popcorn.

Their incompetent FC just played your gate game witch it's the only thing gallente are good for and have always bean anyway.

Anyway, keep posting gallente uberness please so I can have some laughs with corp mates looking at those km stats and find out the good stuff.

Edit: 48% EM resist on some crappy tornado with 800mm AC... 44 and 48 Them/Kin, seriously, the incompetence it self in a single KM hopefully for you guys.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#400 - 2012-01-05 18:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
if properly flown, those Tornadoes would have kited and shredded everything from 50-70km (and if they had some tackle on the gate). im not even gonna bother dissecting the scenario. it's bullshit, and you could have achieved better results with Canes, Drakes and their respective logis. keep trying to prove this wrong though, i am curious about what you can come up with.

Diemosts are actually quite decent in small gang engagements (and always were), as are the Proteus, Talos, Brutix, Myrm, Ishtar, etc. Canes and Drakes do this job much better (more HP and vastly better damage projection). Logis and neuters make every piece of **** ship look good. if there's no reason to fly ships other than Canes and Drakes, EVE's pvp has not been fixed.

have fun with your blaster boats in small gang engagements. everyone is happy for you. hell, im happy for me because my solo Diemost and Ishtar are a little bit better. but dont spill your bs all over the forums trying to convince people like myself, who have flown nothing but Gallente since 2006 and also currently, that hybrids and their ships are fine all of a sudden. you're inadvertently doing a disservice to the community, due to your detachment from serious fleet work and the majority of EVE's reality.


let's say that CCP has made blasters quite good for small gang/solo work. medium rails need another +20-30% dps, in addition to decreased fitting reqs. large rails maybe need another +10%. once this is done, Gallente ships may be considered for serious fleet ops, and blaster boats will continue to do "ok" in small gang engagements.