Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Seems like you dodged your own question.

Go ahead and list some sandbox games. We can then look at how they compare mechanically to EvE and/or whether they simply use other forms of gating to the same effect.

Skills are necessary. End of story.


Why? Because every MMO ever has them? Fallacy: appeal on tradition. Because they help you learn what is what and how it does things as you progress from cheap and 'carefree' to expensive and 'super serious'? If the implication is that the skillpoint system shows how to play the game, that's obviously inaccurate. If this is just saying, though, that it sets up a flow of learning, getting ISK can and does already do that; and there's no honest reason to artificially limit the learning process. The list of why is pretty thorough, but one example is that the spreadsheet stigma of zoomed out gameplay can't be well-evidenced as anything better without direct experience.. that includes of larger ships and those that would be found on the field. Because without them there would be no advantage to playing and keeping a character, as soon as you did something with a character in which there would be consequences you could just make a new one and ta-da, fresh slate? The only thing this seems to effect, on a quick check, is sec status / rep, which could effect the whole account instead. Because skills help focus and direct players efforts, make them choose what to spend time on? Because skills, and the lack thereof, have shaped and made everything the way it is today, from everything from starter corps and Eve-uni to 'leet PVP' groups? It's less than obvious how SP "sets up corporations and elite PvP groups". Learning is inherent with gameplay -- and socialization with a sandbox MMO. There are more options for all of these without SP, because the arbitrary, entry non-gameplay is a deterrant for that learning process and that evidencing of the game as more than a zoomed out spreadsheet.

Yes, which is why the evidence to support the idea should be presented and defended rather than simply assumed. Until you do that your statement about other sandbox games is pointless.

It's replying to a completely vague "challenge". "Do other games have no gating mechanic?" The answer is yes. "Would EVE be more fun if a player could sub, drop a few hundred on PLEX, then fly HACs, Marauders, and capitals?" That's already possible with the character bazaar. "Would it be more fun if every character had the same stats?" The stats that ships are designed for? Vs. what, stifling gameplay options?

Also no, there are no obvious benefits because the only difference between EvE with and without skills is a flat performance potential. Everyone having access to everything at peak performance doesn't actually benefit anyone comparatively. Benefits are listed and include freedom, exploring niches without the inherent negativity of missing out on experiences and productivity and fantasy, learning the game enough to make a decision on its entertainment value without being underwhelmed by immediate limitations, the option of recruiting subs more effectively because of that more interesting learning style, the development of skill more efficiently because of proper ship responsiveness..

Please do.

Here is my opinion at this juncture: EVE would be different, but not broken, and the market for characters would dry up except for people whose skill is in sculpting particularly attractive avatars.

Take, for example, people who participate in industry of one form or another. There are a bunch of skills which act as "soft" barriers to entry into the profession, but the real barriers to entry are the hard barriers of "knowing what the heck you are doing," "planning three months in advance," and "being able to carry out the plan." The knowledge of how to set up processes in-game, model those processes, and include the externalities such as logistics, to generate a profit from the time invested, are the real skills required for doing industry. Skill points in appropriate skills are a trivial impediment.

There's a rule of thumb that you don't even bother trying industry until you have PE5. I figure this is the same kind of "hurry up and wait" scenario as learning skills were back in the day. Why shouldn't a new player be able to participate in industry? They are going to make many mistakes as they learn the ropes: why should they be punished even more with the inability to compete even when they know what they're doing, unless they wait a month or so for PE5 or buy an industrial character?

What about the combat pilot who flies in an alliance? There are currently artificial barriers to entry: "you must have this exact skill set, be able to fly this exact ship and fitting". That pilot also has to know how to not derp their way through a red gate, target the right target, shoot on cue, etc. Skill points in appropriate skills are an impediment.

There's a rule of thumb about training "support skills" such as Engineering, Electronics, yada yada. Would the game really be broken if, instead of simply gifting new characters these skills we took the skills away completely?

With skills gone, the choices of modules for ship fitting come down to fitting capacity, financial capacity, and availability. There are still decisions to be made, but no longer will you end up flying a meta-3 fitted battlecruiser simply because you didn't have the skills to fly a tech-2 fitted navy cruiser yet.

Some people will miss the little reward of "Skill training completed." Perhaps people will feel cheated out of some illusion of "character development" which they have been conned into from playing single-player RPGs for too long. You don't have levels in Quake, but it's still a fun game. You just get better weapons, and harder enemies. EVE is not an RPG, it's a sci-fi simulator attempting to provide the world an Objectivist reality: you are the product of your choices and efforts. You are poor because you are bad.

Why let an outdated paradigm such as character skills get in the way of people discovering just how bad and useless they really are?

What in your vision for training remains?

Nothing. No more SP. Imagine an EVE where that entire section of the character sheet is just gone. Use the modules you want, on the ships you want, doing the things you want.