These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Fix the Cyclone
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#1 - 2015-09-29 21:13:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Murkar Omaristos
Well we just had a battlecruiser rebalance, and the cyclone is still underwhelming. I haven't seen one on the field for a long time, have you?

The problem is that it has mixed hardpoints. Even though it gets a nice bonus to missiles, it gets two unbonused turret hardpoints. I would propose that it be adjusted to match the drake, but with an active tank instead of resist bonuses (which it already has).

Current Cyclone
5 Missile hardpoints/2 Turrent Hardpoints
5% Bonus to launcher rate of fire
7.5% Bonus to Shield booster amount

Proposed Cyclone
6 Missile hardpoints/0 Turrent Hardpoints
5% Bonus to launcher rate of fire
7.5% Bonus to Shield booster amount

This would give the cyclone the same hardpoints as the drake, but instead of shield resists, it gets an active tank bonus. I.e. The cyclone would be the active tank counterpart to the drake. By removing both of the turrets and adding only one launcher, it won't be OP, but it'll have a full rack of missiles instead of mixed guns and a race-appropriate tank bonus.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2015-09-29 22:08:29 UTC
That's two utility slots for neuts/nos though, not for guns.

The reason it has less hardpoints than the drake is that the drake only has a damage bonus to kinetic, whereas the cyclone can shoot anything it wants. Give them launcher parity, and you've made the drake the one no-one will fly.

or would you lock the cyclone to explosive damage as well?
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#3 - 2015-09-29 23:24:59 UTC
If you had to buff the cyclone, I'd rather give it another medium slot. It only has 5 medium slots, aka the same as a hawk. If you're soloing, that means you either have to severely gimp range control or can only fit a 2 slot tank. Maybe take away some buffer as a trade-off.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#4 - 2015-09-30 00:33:33 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
That's two utility slots for neuts/nos though, not for guns.

The reason it has less hardpoints than the drake is that the drake only has a damage bonus to kinetic, whereas the cyclone can shoot anything it wants. Give them launcher parity, and you've made the drake the one no-one will fly.

or would you lock the cyclone to explosive damage as well?


You could, or consider the fact that the cyclones ROF bonus is only 5% vs. the drakes 10% to damage. By dropping two turrets and adding one launcher, it's dps will still come in below that of the drake.

With regards to the Bobb's thoughts - 6 mids would be OP. The aim isn't to give it a significant buff (the loss of two turret hardpoints and addition of a launcher won't increase the DPS a lot), but to make it more relevant without having to resort to weird mixed turret fits.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#5 - 2015-09-30 00:50:44 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
That's two utility slots for neuts/nos though, not for guns.

The reason it has less hardpoints than the drake is that the drake only has a damage bonus to kinetic, whereas the cyclone can shoot anything it wants. Give them launcher parity, and you've made the drake the one no-one will fly.

or would you lock the cyclone to explosive damage as well?


You could, or consider the fact that the cyclones ROF bonus is only 5% vs. the drakes 10% to damage. By dropping two turrets and adding one launcher, it's dps will still come in below that of the drake.
No 6 launchers means the Cyclone outdamages the drake shooting every kind of missile except kinetic. And even then it'll be close considering the Cyclone's ability to field a full set of medium drones.
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#6 - 2015-09-30 00:59:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Murkar Omaristos
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
That's two utility slots for neuts/nos though, not for guns.

The reason it has less hardpoints than the drake is that the drake only has a damage bonus to kinetic, whereas the cyclone can shoot anything it wants. Give them launcher parity, and you've made the drake the one no-one will fly.

or would you lock the cyclone to explosive damage as well?


You could, or consider the fact that the cyclones ROF bonus is only 5% vs. the drakes 10% to damage. By dropping two turrets and adding one launcher, it's dps will still come in below that of the drake.
No 6 launchers means the Cyclone outdamages the drake shooting every kind of missile except kinetic. And even then it'll be close considering the Cyclone's ability to field a full set of medium drones.


That's the point of a racial bonus though. It gets more DPS but condition upon using that damage type.

EDIT: Just plugged it in. With scourge rage the drake pulls 627 with all LVL 5 skills, versus only 558 on the cyclone.

Once you account for drone damage, at max skills, that makes it 716 on the cyclone and 726 on the drake. Even with the drones accounted for, drake still does more DPS. You didn't do the math before commenting.

The drake also has the advantage that more of that DPS comes from missiles than drones, meaning it's actually applied in fleet fights.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#7 - 2015-09-30 01:07:08 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
If you had to buff the cyclone, I'd rather give it another medium slot. It only has 5 medium slots, aka the same as a hawk. If you're soloing, that means you either have to severely gimp range control or can only fit a 2 slot tank. Maybe take away some buffer as a trade-off.


+Rigs and dc.

The '2 slot tank' on the cyclone is good before you add implants, links and boosters.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#8 - 2015-09-30 01:08:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
That's two utility slots for neuts/nos though, not for guns.

The reason it has less hardpoints than the drake is that the drake only has a damage bonus to kinetic, whereas the cyclone can shoot anything it wants. Give them launcher parity, and you've made the drake the one no-one will fly.

or would you lock the cyclone to explosive damage as well?


You could, or consider the fact that the cyclones ROF bonus is only 5% vs. the drakes 10% to damage. By dropping two turrets and adding one launcher, it's dps will still come in below that of the drake.
No 6 launchers means the Cyclone outdamages the drake shooting every kind of missile except kinetic. And even then it'll be close considering the Cyclone's ability to field a full set of medium drones.


That's the point of a racial bonus though. It gets more DPS but condition upon using that damage type.
And it's a useless bonus against tech 2 and tech 3 caldari and gallente ships and is a big disadvantage against shield ships in general that have decent natural kinetic resistance. Selectable damage is kind of a big deal and there are many instances currently where the 5 launcher Cyclone out damages the current 6 launcher kinetic locked drake. And as already mentioned, Cyclone can field a full set of medium drones. The Drake can't. If you want to see the Cyclone be more popular without hurting the popularity of the Drake too much, move a utility high to the mid. But really I think the Cyclone is kind of okay, especially with the recent speed buffs. It's much harder to fly than the Drake because of more need for heat and active tank management, which probably accounts for it's lower popularity.

Murkar Omaristos wrote:
You didn't do the math before commenting.
No I just happen to fly the ships I'm commenting on and know the value of shooting into damage holes. Shooting into a resist that is often times more than 5% less than the kinetic resist a drake is often obliged to shoot into is a pretty common scenario.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#9 - 2015-09-30 01:10:54 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
That's two utility slots for neuts/nos though, not for guns.

The reason it has less hardpoints than the drake is that the drake only has a damage bonus to kinetic, whereas the cyclone can shoot anything it wants. Give them launcher parity, and you've made the drake the one no-one will fly.

or would you lock the cyclone to explosive damage as well?


You could, or consider the fact that the cyclones ROF bonus is only 5% vs. the drakes 10% to damage. By dropping two turrets and adding one launcher, it's dps will still come in below that of the drake.
No 6 launchers means the Cyclone outdamages the drake shooting every kind of missile except kinetic. And even then it'll be close considering the Cyclone's ability to field a full set of medium drones.


That's the point of a racial bonus though. It gets more DPS but condition upon using that damage type.

EDIT: Just plugged it in. With scourge rage the drake pulls 627 with all LVL 5 skills, versus only 558 on the cyclone.

Once you account for drone damage, at max skills, that makes it 716 on the cyclone and 726 on the drake. Even with the drones accounted for, drake still does more DPS. You didn't do the math before commenting.

The drake also has the advantage that more of that DPS comes from missiles than drones, meaning it's actually applied in fleet fights.

The Drake is meant to do better in fleet fights. The Cyclone is used more for solo/small gang. You've just demonstrated that damage wise the two ships are currently balanced.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#10 - 2015-09-30 01:11:41 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:


The drake also has the advantage that more of that DPS comes from missiles than drones, meaning it's actually applied in fleet fights.


So fly a drake for fleets and a cyclone for small gang? Sheesh.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2015-09-30 01:13:39 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:


That's the point of a racial bonus though. It gets more DPS but condition upon using that damage type.

EDIT: Just plugged it in. With scourge rage the drake pulls 627 with all LVL 5 skills, versus only 558 on the cyclone.

Once you account for drone damage, at max skills, that makes it 716 on the cyclone and 726 on the drake. Even with the drones accounted for, drake still does more DPS. You didn't do the math before commenting.

The drake also has the advantage that more of that DPS comes from missiles than drones, meaning it's actually applied in fleet fights.



Ten DPS is worth a lot less than having a fully selectable damagetype and the ability to shoot through your opponent's resistance holes you know.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#12 - 2015-09-30 01:18:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Look at it this way,

We've just shown the drake has a smidge, if even that, more dps than a cyclone but nearly a third of that dps is pigeon hold into a terrible damage type AND the cyclone is faster with a smaller sig, AND the cyclone has TWO utility highs, AND the cyclone has a better tank!

Jesus Christ. Buff the drake already.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#13 - 2015-09-30 01:18:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Murkar Omaristos
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:

The Drake is meant to do better in fleet fights. The Cyclone is used more for solo/small gang. You've just demonstrated that damage wise the two ships are currently balanced.


That calculation was based on the modified hardpoints I suggested. I'm glad you think it's well balanced, I thought so too, which is why I suggested it.

For those that missed it, the damage between the two are not balanced at the moment - or if they are, it's based on a weird setup of mixed turrets and launchers. I'll recalculate it with the current setup later when I'm finished eating this delicious bowl of ice cream :) The numbers you've all said were well balanced are based on the modified hardpoint setup I proposed, not the way cyclones are currently.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2015-09-30 01:21:18 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:

The Drake is meant to do better in fleet fights. The Cyclone is used more for solo/small gang. You've just demonstrated that damage wise the two ships are currently balanced.


That calculation was based on the modified hardpoints I suggested. I'm glad you think it's well balanced, I thought so too, which is why I suggested it.

For those that missed it, the damage between the two are not balanced at the moment. I'll recalculate it with the current setup later when I'm finished eating this delicious bowl of ice cream :)


But it makes the drake irrelevant. As people keep saying and you choose to ignore.

Selectable damagetypes need a drawback, ten DPS between a 6 launcher cyclone and a drake is not a drawback.
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#15 - 2015-09-30 01:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Murkar Omaristos
Danika Princip wrote:
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:

The Drake is meant to do better in fleet fights. The Cyclone is used more for solo/small gang. You've just demonstrated that damage wise the two ships are currently balanced.


That calculation was based on the modified hardpoints I suggested. I'm glad you think it's well balanced, I thought so too, which is why I suggested it.

For those that missed it, the damage between the two are not balanced at the moment. I'll recalculate it with the current setup later when I'm finished eating this delicious bowl of ice cream :)


But it makes the drake irrelevant. As people keep saying and you choose to ignore.

Selectable damagetypes need a drawback, ten DPS between a 6 launcher cyclone and a drake is not a drawback.


It's more like 100 dps when you consider how much of that comes from drones on the cyclone, which is pretty much irrelevant for fleet fights. Also, the cyclone gets significantly less tank because it lacks an extra mid slot. Those are more than enough of a drawback for the selectable damage type.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#16 - 2015-09-30 01:27:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:

The Drake is meant to do better in fleet fights. The Cyclone is used more for solo/small gang. You've just demonstrated that damage wise the two ships are currently balanced.


That calculation was based on the modified hardpoints I suggested. I'm glad you think it's well balanced, I thought so too, which is why I suggested it.

For those that missed it, the damage between the two are not balanced at the moment - or if they are, it's based on a weird setup of mixed turrets and launchers. I'll recalculate it with the current setup later when I'm finished eating this delicious bowl of ice cream :) The numbers you've all said were well balanced are based on the modified hardpoint setup I proposed, not the way cyclones are currently.

I actually thought the damage was a bit high but didn't bother really checking. Cyclone does 623 damage cold with medium drones. That's perfectly fine considering it's faster speed (drake was previously slower than all but 1 battleship, now it's only a smidge faster than battleships) and has a better local tank. You need to EFT warrior less and actually fly the ships. If you can't properly value the advantage of shooting into damage holes, you're a lost cause. If a ship has some resistance that's approximately 10% or less than its kinetic resistance, Cyclone will do on par damage.

If you want to F1 for days in a large fleet, fly the drake. If you want to solo/small gang and have the speed to catch things or run away from things, fly a Cyclone.
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#17 - 2015-09-30 01:32:36 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:

I actually thought the damage was a bit high but didn't bother really checking. Cyclone does 623 damage cold with medium drones. That's perfectly fine considering it's faster speed (drake was previously slower than all but 1 battleship, not it's only a smidge faster than battleships) and has a better local tank. You need to EFT warrior less and actually fly the ships. If you can't properly value the advantage of shooting into damage holes, you're a lost cause. If a ship has some resistance that's approximately 10% or more less than kinetic damage, Cyclone will do on par damage.


Did you even read the original post? You're missing the point entirely. Currently it has mixed turrets and launchers. At no point did I say this would increase the DPS of the cyclone.

In fact it will probably decrease it, because you're sacrificing two turret hardpoints for one launcher. With minmatar guns on those hardpoints, you still have selectable damage type.

I don't mind people addressing the disadvantages of the changes - but if you're too idiotic to understand the proposed change, or too lazy to read it through, and then want to criticize them based on a false understanding of what was proposed.....
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#18 - 2015-09-30 01:33:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
If you're only capable of comparing the drake and cyclone from a fleet perspective then this thread is pointless.

Apples and oranges.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#19 - 2015-09-30 01:35:30 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:

I actually thought the damage was a bit high but didn't bother really checking. Cyclone does 623 damage cold with medium drones. That's perfectly fine considering it's faster speed (drake was previously slower than all but 1 battleship, not it's only a smidge faster than battleships) and has a better local tank. You need to EFT warrior less and actually fly the ships. If you can't properly value the advantage of shooting into damage holes, you're a lost cause. If a ship has some resistance that's approximately 10% or more less than kinetic damage, Cyclone will do on par damage.


Did you even read the original post? You're missing the point entirely. Currently it has mixed turrets and launchers. At no point did I say this would increase the DPS of the cyclone.

In fact it will probably decrease it, because you're sacrificing two turret hardpoints for one launcher. With minmatar guns on those hardpoints, you still have selectable damage type.

I don't mind people addressing the disadvantages of the changes - but if you're too idiotic to understand the proposed change, or too lazy to read it through, and then want to criticize them based on a false understanding of what was proposed.....

You've further cemented my view that you've never really flown a Cyclone in a solo/small gang PvP context if you're actually talking about fitting guns in the 2 non-launcher slots instead of neuts/nos/smartbomb.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2015-09-30 02:01:26 UTC
The Cyclone is plenty powerful enough. Any lack of popularity in the ship is merely due to cyclic balance. Had it been in its current form back when Hurricanes were the PVP king, Cyclones would have been a close second in popularity most likely.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
12Next page