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So... how would you nerf T3's ?

Author
Loradan Illstari
Illstari Industries
#61 - 2015-09-23 18:34:06 UTC
The problem with T3 cruisers is faction cruiser level DPS with battleship level tank while maintaining cruiser speed and signature radius. They can shake off damage as well as they can absorb it, so combine that with a fleet of 10 Guardians and they're nigh inkillable, while being able to alpha any other ship. If you're in anything but T3 cruisers when a T3 gang comes along, the answer is always "run". You can burn down carriers in a T3 cruiser group without breaking a sweat, and you don't even want to be close a T3 group in low sec, where any of the things that could threaten them aren't allowed to be used.
Nyu Kaminari
Doomheim
#62 - 2015-09-24 17:45:17 UTC
T3D's ... Take away the insurance and you have solved 75% of your problems. The other 25% are some small tweaks. My Confessor is doing assault frigate damage at 74km w/ beams and I still have two lows nano'd which I could simply trade for tank or even more range. a group of these can show up on a tackled ship 70 km out, blap it without even getting in range and then get out of there immediately with a 2.8 sec align time. with this set up, they can Micro at 4,500 M/s when heated (No snakes)

The cooldown has to be increased. Love my ship but it just feels wrong.
Arcos Vandymion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2015-09-25 06:51:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Arcos Vandymion
Loradan Illstari wrote:
The problem with T3 cruisers is faction cruiser level DPS with battleship level tank while maintaining cruiser speed and signature radius. They can shake off damage as well as they can absorb it, so combine that with a fleet of 10 Guardians and they're nigh inkillable, while being able to alpha any other ship. If you're in anything but T3 cruisers when a T3 gang comes along, the answer is always "run". You can burn down carriers in a T3 cruiser group without breaking a sweat, and you don't even want to be close a T3 group in low sec, where any of the things that could threaten them aren't allowed to be used.


Don't faction cruisers retain the signature and sig/align of cruisers as well? Weird wording there - T2 cruisers retain cruiser sig/align and have a bit more damage sometimes ... *looks at pre-nerf Ishtar*

Possibly I see, currently, two ways to redo T3Cs. Either you go the T3D way with modes or you rebalance them as they are. I kind of dislike the "go the T3D way" because it takes away pretty much everything T3Cs have been so far.
Not to mention all that sleeper tech is supposedly really adaptable so giving each T3 size a different gag to play around with sounds fine.

Rebalancing as they are however is probably going to be a huge pita as the community has way more heads to think about how to "break" a ship/mechanic than CCP has.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#64 - 2015-09-28 19:54:23 UTC
Arcos Vandymion wrote:
Loradan Illstari wrote:
The problem with T3 cruisers is faction cruiser level DPS with battleship level tank while maintaining cruiser speed and signature radius. They can shake off damage as well as they can absorb it, so combine that with a fleet of 10 Guardians and they're nigh inkillable, while being able to alpha any other ship. If you're in anything but T3 cruisers when a T3 gang comes along, the answer is always "run". You can burn down carriers in a T3 cruiser group without breaking a sweat, and you don't even want to be close a T3 group in low sec, where any of the things that could threaten them aren't allowed to be used.


Don't faction cruisers retain the signature and sig/align of cruisers as well? Weird wording there - T2 cruisers retain cruiser sig/align and have a bit more damage sometimes ... *looks at pre-nerf Ishtar*

Possibly I see, currently, two ways to redo T3Cs. Either you go the T3D way with modes or you rebalance them as they are. I kind of dislike the "go the T3D way" because it takes away pretty much everything T3Cs have been so far.
Not to mention all that sleeper tech is supposedly really adaptable so giving each T3 size a different gag to play around with sounds fine.

Rebalancing as they are however is probably going to be a huge pita as the community has way more heads to think about how to "break" a ship/mechanic than CCP has.


But faction cruisers don't have T3 tank, which is why T3 gangs are so popular. T3 tank + logi = you can't kill me. They're also quick enough to disengage from most fights in low sec, and even in nulsec. Survivability in T3s is high so you can deck them out in faction/deadspace mods and be even more lethal and unkillable. Seeing gangs of 30 or 40 of them, or even 50-100, isn't that uncommon.
Garrett Osinov
Doomheim
#65 - 2015-09-28 20:25:41 UTC
Valacus wrote:
Arcos Vandymion wrote:
Loradan Illstari wrote:
The problem with T3 cruisers is faction cruiser level DPS with battleship level tank while maintaining cruiser speed and signature radius. They can shake off damage as well as they can absorb it, so combine that with a fleet of 10 Guardians and they're nigh inkillable, while being able to alpha any other ship. If you're in anything but T3 cruisers when a T3 gang comes along, the answer is always "run". You can burn down carriers in a T3 cruiser group without breaking a sweat, and you don't even want to be close a T3 group in low sec, where any of the things that could threaten them aren't allowed to be used.


Don't faction cruisers retain the signature and sig/align of cruisers as well? Weird wording there - T2 cruisers retain cruiser sig/align and have a bit more damage sometimes ... *looks at pre-nerf Ishtar*

Possibly I see, currently, two ways to redo T3Cs. Either you go the T3D way with modes or you rebalance them as they are. I kind of dislike the "go the T3D way" because it takes away pretty much everything T3Cs have been so far.
Not to mention all that sleeper tech is supposedly really adaptable so giving each T3 size a different gag to play around with sounds fine.

Rebalancing as they are however is probably going to be a huge pita as the community has way more heads to think about how to "break" a ship/mechanic than CCP has.


But faction cruisers don't have T3 tank, which is why T3 gangs are so popular. T3 tank + logi = you can't kill me. They're also quick enough to disengage from most fights in low sec, and even in nulsec. Survivability in T3s is high so you can deck them out in faction/deadspace mods and be even more lethal and unkillable. Seeing gangs of 30 or 40 of them, or even 50-100, isn't that uncommon.


Faction cruisers have sick damage and some of them have exellent tank. Svipuls are popular, because they are fast and agile.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2015-09-29 07:31:18 UTC
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Svipuls are popular, because they are fast and agile.


Interceptors are fast and agile.... Svipuls are monsters.

No Worries

Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2015-09-29 09:48:11 UTC
Remove all range bonuses from T3 subsystems, problem solved. No more slippery petes and battleship tank Proteus projecting damage at battleship ranges.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#68 - 2015-09-29 13:27:25 UTC
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Faction cruisers have sick damage and some of them have exellent tank. Svipuls are popular, because they are fast and agile.


Not T3 tank, and Svipuls aren't faction cruisers.
Daerrol
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2015-09-30 17:07:05 UTC
I'd half the bonus resist they get natively and increase their sig.
Garrett Osinov
Doomheim
#70 - 2015-09-30 21:38:00 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Svipuls are popular, because they are fast and agile.


Interceptors are fast and agile.... Svipuls are monsters.


How about Taranis with blasters which can do 360+ dps, it's even more agile and cost 30 mils. Maybe you should start whining to nerf taranis ?
Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
#71 - 2015-09-30 22:31:15 UTC
Garrett Osinov wrote:
ChromeStriker wrote:
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Svipuls are popular, because they are fast and agile.


Interceptors are fast and agile.... Svipuls are monsters.


How about Taranis with blasters which can do 360+ dps, it's even more agile and cost 30 mils. Maybe you should start whining to nerf taranis ?


To achieve such damage, Taranis have to be hero tanking target hugging joke. Smartbombs? Dies. Drones? Dies. Slightest piloting error? Dies. Scramwebbed? Dies.
The whole problem of T3Ds is the fact that there is no sane-price counter other than EWAR. From the other side, what EWAR ships CAN'T counter?
Magnus Gryps
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#72 - 2015-09-30 22:35:28 UTC
Valacus wrote:
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Faction cruisers have sick damage and some of them have exellent tank. Svipuls are popular, because they are fast and agile.


Not T3 tank, and Svipuls aren't faction cruisers.


Well, who would use T3 cruisers if ships like Orthrus, Stratios, Gila, Vigilant had T3 like tanks?

I don't really see T3 cruisers being master of all trades. As with all other ships, if you emphasise one or two aspects (damage, tank, speed whatever) when fitting you have to make sacrifices on others. You might fit a Proteus as an absolute brick, but will you be able to project battleship like damage to, say 100 km? Don't think so.

Some extremes are an issue, I agree (slippery petes for example).
Garrett Osinov
Doomheim
#73 - 2015-10-01 08:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Garrett Osinov
Leila Meurtrier wrote:
Garrett Osinov wrote:
ChromeStriker wrote:
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Svipuls are popular, because they are fast and agile.


Interceptors are fast and agile.... Svipuls are monsters.


How about Taranis with blasters which can do 360+ dps, it's even more agile and cost 30 mils. Maybe you should start whining to nerf taranis ?


To achieve such damage, Taranis have to be hero tanking target hugging joke. Smartbombs? Dies. Drones? Dies. Slightest piloting error? Dies. Scramwebbed? Dies.
The whole problem of T3Ds is the fact that there is no sane-price counter other than EWAR. From the other side, what EWAR ships CAN'T counter?


Lol...I guess you are just a forum troll, who never flown taranis, who never flown t3 destroyer, but already screaming that they have to be nerfed. Because of the ones like you vagabonds were nerfed, Ishtar got killed and in general game play gets destroyed.

You are saying, webbed ceptors go down quickly, the same counter applies to t3 destroyers, webbed and scrambled they pop very quickly.

Look at svipul, play in eft, since you can't fly it. With Artie's it does only 300dps and has not that much ehp, with autocannons and perfect skills on Oh it does close to 500, but if it gets webbed and scrambled, it pops very quickly.

Now let's say we stick to arty fit and 300 Dps...is it a lot 300 Dps and 30k tank for a 70-80 mils ship ? Does it have to be nerfed ?

How about vigilant which has 90%webs and 900dps or a Gila 900dps and close to 100k tank ?
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2015-10-01 09:07:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ChromeStriker
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Leila Meurtrier wrote:
Garrett Osinov wrote:
ChromeStriker wrote:
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Svipuls are popular, because they are fast and agile.


Interceptors are fast and agile.... Svipuls are monsters.


How about Taranis with blasters which can do 360+ dps, it's even more agile and cost 30 mils. Maybe you should start whining to nerf taranis ?


To achieve such damage, Taranis have to be hero tanking target hugging joke. Smartbombs? Dies. Drones? Dies. Slightest piloting error? Dies. Scramwebbed? Dies.
The whole problem of T3Ds is the fact that there is no sane-price counter other than EWAR. From the other side, what EWAR ships CAN'T counter?


Lol...I guess you are just a forum troll, who never flown taranis, who never flown t3 destroyer, but already screaming that they have to be nerfed. Because of the ones like you vagabonds were nerfed, Ishtar got killed and in general game play gets destroyed.

You are saying, webbed ceptors go down quickly, the same counter applies to t3 destroyers, webbed and scrambled they pop very quickly.

Look at svipul, play in eft, since you can't fly it. With Artie's it does only 300dps and has not that much ehp, with autocannons and perfect skills on Oh it does close to 500, but if it gets webbed and scrambled, it pops very quickly.

Now let's say we stick to arty fit and 300 Dps...is it a lot 300 Dps and 30k tank for a 70-80 mils ship ? Does it have to be nerfed ?

How about vigilant which has 90%webs and 900dps or a Gila 900dps and close to 100k tank ?


Ok im not going to get pulled in to this mess of a post lol... but i will say all i was trying to put across was that it isnt just the T3 destroyers speed and agility that makes people like them... Its that PLUS everthing else Roll

No Worries

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#75 - 2015-10-01 11:06:08 UTC
For T3Cs aside from the loki, they should shave off those extra hp that put them out of line from a HAC-T3-CS ehp progression, and tone down the webrange/scramrange bonus for loki/prot. Other than that, they seem very cool to me. It should create a more meaningful choice between a HAC's application/mobilty, a HIC's resistance and utility, and a CS' sheer awesomeness and vulnerability regarding sigrad.

T3Ds are split in two, both the svipul and confessor benefit off the sheer velocity increase in prop mode, while the jackdaw and hecate, both lacking just that, are great designs with very distinct strengths and weaknesses for a fitting pricetag. The confessor's sharpshooter range bonus is to much in my opinion.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2015-10-01 12:28:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Remove all range bonuses from T3 subsystems, problem solved. No more slippery petes and battleship tank Proteus projecting damage at battleship ranges.

It's not. You just addressed niche usage (granted, that's a large niche) and that's it, T3Cs will still be desirable over anything else in a lot of cases.

IMO fitting subs (and fitting space in general) is where most part of the problem of "BS tank" lies.
Zirashi
Cyclical Destruction
#77 - 2015-10-01 23:08:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Zirashi
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Leila Meurtrier wrote:
Garrett Osinov wrote:
ChromeStriker wrote:
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Svipuls are popular, because they are fast and agile.


Interceptors are fast and agile.... Svipuls are monsters.


How about Taranis with blasters which can do 360+ dps, it's even more agile and cost 30 mils. Maybe you should start whining to nerf taranis ?


To achieve such damage, Taranis have to be hero tanking target hugging joke. Smartbombs? Dies. Drones? Dies. Slightest piloting error? Dies. Scramwebbed? Dies.
The whole problem of T3Ds is the fact that there is no sane-price counter other than EWAR. From the other side, what EWAR ships CAN'T counter?


Lol...I guess you are just a forum troll, who never flown taranis, who never flown t3 destroyer, but already screaming that they have to be nerfed. Because of the ones like you vagabonds were nerfed, Ishtar got killed and in general game play gets destroyed.

You are saying, webbed ceptors go down quickly, the same counter applies to t3 destroyers, webbed and scrambled they pop very quickly.

Look at svipul, play in eft, since you can't fly it. With Artie's it does only 300dps and has not that much ehp, with autocannons and perfect skills on Oh it does close to 500, but if it gets webbed and scrambled, it pops very quickly.

Now let's say we stick to arty fit and 300 Dps...is it a lot 300 Dps and 30k tank for a 70-80 mils ship ? Does it have to be nerfed ?

How about vigilant which has 90%webs and 900dps or a Gila 900dps and close to 100k tank ?


Actually that Svipul costs 50-60mil in Jita right now and supposedly has an insurance payout of ~30mil. So yes, let's look at Svipul; has more DPS(even with arty), higher speed, greater range, more EHP, more utility, and costs a measly 5 million more than a Taranis after insurance. So, aside from null travel, why should I fly a Taranis over that Svipul? Only downside I'm seeing is that I wouldn't get any fights as anyone not in a blob would probably run like hell.

I haven't trained or flown any T3D since I was more interested in the Marauders, but from what you typed I'm thinking I am making a huge mistake. Ironically, in your attempt to prove him wrong and argue that it isn't OP and you've shown me it actually might be.

brb training minmatar
Garrett Osinov
Doomheim
#78 - 2015-10-02 09:42:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Garrett Osinov
Zirashi wrote:



Actually that Svipul costs 50-60mil in Jita right now and supposedly has an insurance payout of ~30mil. So yes, let's look at Svipul; has more DPS(even with arty), higher speed, greater range, more EHP, more utility, and costs a measly 5 million more than a Taranis after insurance. So, aside from null travel, why should I fly a Taranis over that Svipul? Only downside I'm seeing is that I wouldn't get any fights as anyone not in a blob would probably run like hell.

I haven't trained or flown any T3D since I was more interested in the Marauders, but from what you typed I'm thinking I am making a huge mistake. Ironically, in your attempt to prove him wrong and argue that it isn't OP and you've shown me it actually might be.

brb training minmatar


Train them, fly them, and write only then !!!! On the other hand If you don't have a clue, why and when you need to fly ceptor and not T3 destroyer, then I would recomend you to stick to marauders and mission running in hisec.

The problem is that ppl don't fly those ships and don't have a clue about them, but already screaming and whining, that they are overpowerd and they need to be nerfed.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2015-10-02 10:36:40 UTC  |  Edited by: ChromeStriker
Garrett Osinov wrote:


Train them, fly them, and write only then !!!! On the other hand If you don't have a clue, why and when you need to fly ceptor and not T3 destroyer, then I would recomend you to stick to marauders and mission running in hisec.

The problem is that ppl don't fly those ships and don't have a clue about them, but already screaming and whining, that they are overpowerd and they need to be nerfed.


Ok.. i have flown them... And against them... and with them.... and they are ridiculious.

Tank of an assault frigate (or better), 4000m/s, 400dps, scan res of a inti, Can overheat for days, and a sig that makes small guns cry...

Think there's an issue somewhere in there Roll

No Worries

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#80 - 2015-10-02 11:15:45 UTC
Atleast for the svipul in particular, the high agility allows for fast and tight orbits, partially negating the restrictions/issues created by fitting ACs with abysmal range. At twice the inertia, their orbits would be significantly wider or slower, reducing their applied dps - remaining unharmed by tracking issues at some .7/s - significantly. One can dream.

Else, commiting fully to an oversized AB should have some sort of merit, but the base sigs for svipul and confessor could do with some tweaking.