EVE General Discussion

Moving up the initial value is a change and, as I explained, I believe that's more proximate to the precedent of removal qua "they cannot be trained hence on new characters," at least more so than "they remain but have a new purpose." Hence my suggestion the latter argument is weaker.



I agree, what I've suggested is that, of the historical events I am presently aware of and we have discussed, the situation seems to better fit the situation of a pseudo-removal than a purpose shift. I believe we agree the latter is not the case. Your strongest argument, I believe is that there is no change practically, but I have explained above why I disagree.


I fully agree that if there were no effective change, as you claim, that this thread would not exist. ;)

Which seems about as valid as the lackadaisical moral hazard argument when it's not entirely clear what the precedent is in this situation. I decline to accept either as morally superior.



Absolutely true, except it is free stuff for new players because that's two fewer weeks subscription they're paying before they access these new skills.



Thanks for keeping the thread bumped. Hopefully we can bring the debate to a close before you lose any more sleep over it.

I believe you've disregarded pseudo too quickly and I believe under a more extreme case we would agree that changes of zero bar are in-fact changes.

Hypothetically: If vanguard made all subcapital ship skills default trained to level V, would we be arguing that nothing had changed since no new skills were added or taken away and their functions remained constant? (Genuinely curious)

Which makes this a business decision made by CCP that I expect they believe will improve the NPE. This decision is not about any other class of player, and it's impact on them is non existent. After this change they can still do the things that they were able to before. The only difference is some kind of perceived and tenuous opportunity cost. It also bears repeating that CCP has been very consistent in how they deal with SP.

The facts can be summerised as:
- CCP makes a change for one class of player in line with their business goals
- The change partially reverses an element of the Apocrypha expansion.
- Other classes of players completely unaffected either positively or negatively are unhappy with this

I am unclear about where this becomes a problem.

You train something, you get it. If the skill changes in some way, you will still have it. If a change affects what you can do in the game, then they will seek to ensure that the thing you did in the past you can still continue to do.

Changing the NPE is not a reason to hand out SP. The value of SP to a new player and to an established player is different. An established player has also received other benefits from the time they have already spent playing, such as the in game rewards linked to their activity. Ergo, an argument that they have somehow 'wasted money' is specious and self serving.

And it has been mentioned, this has been done before, and at one time in the opposite direction. I was even able to find a reference (http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/02/new-eve-online-characters-will-initially-train-skills-twice-as-f/).

…and yet, they lose nothing. They still have all the skills and abilities they trained for and unless they ****** up something fierce, they have at least twice the baseline SP. Therefore, they are not negatively affected by the NPE switch-over, especially not in a way that warrants an SP reimbursement.

On the utterly minute chance that they do have less than the baseline, they still come out ahead: they can just biomass and start a new character and get more than they had before. It is impossible to lose.

No, he hasn't. In practice, everything is the same as before the patch — he has the same skills and abilities he had before and they all work the same as always. Everything his skills let him do in practice before, he can do in practice afterwards as well (Entosis Links and Festival Launchers aside). If he didn't have the skill, he didn't have the skill, so he didn't lose it or the abilities it unlocked.

If he absolutely, desperately wants to see it as an opportunity lost, he lost it a long time ago when he chose not to train that skill — it has nothing to do with what happens on Tuesday. His choice, by the way, does not warrant a reimbursement. Something happening to someone else does not entitle him to anything, least of all SP — only changes that actually happen to him, directly are cause for him getting reimbursed.

Don't. It'll cause you nothing but grief. Take it for exactly what I said or don't take it at all.

"In practice" doesn't preclude relative comparison.


I disagree. Most skills aren't trained or used in the first few months. Rolling them into the base represents a change in the marginal cost associated with a skill and that's about as valid as their apriori opportunity given the eventuality was unknown.



You seemed rather explicitly opposed to discussing it, so that strongly implies you agree with my conclusion, else you would have done what you've proved quite willing to do here and respond at length. :)



Since it's gone a few pages without my repeating it: I'm not actually shilling for reimbursement and I don't feel bothered in the lest by this. I just got in on the debate because I felt it was being lazily argued against, I felt a plausible defense could be mounted, and Tippia has been a gracious sparring partner.

Dear op,

entitlement much?
You agreed to a deal to certain conditions when you made your char and you received exactly what you paid for, which was ~50k SP at that time, now there is a new deal (400k SP).
If you bought something 5 months ago you are not entitled to some kind of refund if the item suddenly goes on a sale with a discount.

If you buy a new gaming rig and it goes on a sale in about 5 months time for 25% less no one in the entire world will pay you the difference because the same product is now offered cheaper.

tl:dr
You received exactly what you paid for

Nor is there any harm in helping out the NPE with this gesture, if it really bothers you so much and you so dearly need them extra few sp just roll a brand new alt.



Edit.. Your are gaining quite the reputation for editing post's after the fact Salvos it is both very rude and extremely ignorant of you.

triple post fail edit

It does not bother me in the slightest, in fact I am more than happy with the NPE being enriched.
It is to your whining only that I have responded and nothing else



Edit.. I see you have yet again gone back and edited a post after a response, are you really that feeble minded that you need to move goalpost's so as to justify your skriking ? Grow up man ffs GROW UP!!!