These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Plex hits 1b ISK in Jita

First post
Author
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#741 - 2015-09-25 00:36:44 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
To hopefully break up Aaron and Tippi's spat (They do converse just like a married couple) It is interesting how plex prices work. It is pretty fantastic economics. Commodity trading. Isk to plex, and plex back to isk or consumed for a use. People buy plex with the commodity they receive from real world work to get plex.

[snip]


No, people who buy PLEX buy it with fiat currency not commodities.


Time is the commodity. I am selling my time for X dollars. A plex is worth 20 dollars which translates into a quantity of my time spent. As my earnings differ from others, that makes its value different. As such, I trade my time for a specific unit of isk. People spend said time for said isk. therefore as a commodity, I trade my time for your time if you are willing to pay.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Zihao
Doomheim
#742 - 2015-09-25 00:59:49 UTC
You're both right. Time is being exchange for cash indirectly through the mediums of isk and PLEX respectively.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#743 - 2015-09-25 01:50:25 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
To hopefully break up Aaron and Tippi's spat (They do converse just like a married couple) It is interesting how plex prices work. It is pretty fantastic economics. Commodity trading. Isk to plex, and plex back to isk or consumed for a use. People buy plex with the commodity they receive from real world work to get plex.

[snip]


No, people who buy PLEX buy it with fiat currency not commodities.


Time is the commodity. I am selling my time for X dollars. A plex is worth 20 dollars which translates into a quantity of my time spent. As my earnings differ from others, that makes its value different. As such, I trade my time for a specific unit of isk. People spend said time for said isk. therefore as a commodity, I trade my time for your time if you are willing to pay.


I would not say that time is a commodity more that is has value. After all you cannot sell me extra hours for a given day, week, or even my life. But an employer who would like me to spend time helping him do something that can make him even more money will be willing to pay me for some of my time/labor.

And yes, you are correct a PLEX is worth $20 (for simplicity's sake lets just round up). If you have to spend 20 hours in game grinding to buy a PLEX then your implicit wage is $1/hour. Now maybe you really, really like grinding and you'd happily pay $2/hour to do it...in which case 20 hours of grinding and buying a PLEX makes sense. If not, then pay $15/month directly and spend far, far less time grinding.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#744 - 2015-09-25 01:57:36 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Aaron wrote:
Currency is a commodity and traded world wide. Google "Forex"


From an investment standpoint, currency is not considered to trade in commodity markets. The commodity market is simply the trading of products that are not manufactured in any way.

Currency can be (and is) manipulated through interest rate adjustments, issuing/buying back securities, and adjusting minimum reserve requirements.

Commodities can not be manipulated like that.

Could Japan manipulate the price of copper the same as it is currently manipulating the Yen?


You can also add on things like taxes and deficit spending as well.

To have influence over a commodity like oil, diamonds or copper one would need to either have some degree of monopoly power for form a cartel...which is not easy. After all, with a cartel the problem of chiseling is always a problem.

For example, with OPEC each country has a considerable incentive to produce more than what it has been allocated under the cartel agreement. Further monitoring is not very easy, and even if you can monitor oil production since we are talking nation states, enforcing a penalty is rather difficult (is Saudi Arabia going to invade Venezuela, don't make me laugh). So Saudi Arabia acts/acted as an "enforcer" by threatening to over produce substantially and drive the oil price down very low. However, this is costly and it cuts deeply into the supposed profits.

A country doing something dubious with its own currency? Far, far easier thing to accomplish.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#745 - 2015-09-25 17:14:30 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
You can also add on things like taxes and deficit spending as well.

To have influence over a commodity like oil, diamonds or copper one would need to either have some degree of monopoly power for form a cartel...which is not easy. After all, with a cartel the problem of chiseling is always a problem.

For example, with OPEC each country has a considerable incentive to produce more than what it has been allocated under the cartel agreement. Further monitoring is not very easy, and even if you can monitor oil production since we are talking nation states, enforcing a penalty is rather difficult (is Saudi Arabia going to invade Venezuela, don't make me laugh). So Saudi Arabia acts/acted as an "enforcer" by threatening to over produce substantially and drive the oil price down very low. However, this is costly and it cuts deeply into the supposed profits.

A country doing something dubious with its own currency? Far, far easier thing to accomplish.


Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Individual countries probably will struggle.

But try telling De Beers or OPEC you cannot manipulate a commodity price.


Yeah, my entire point (as someone who works in investment management for a living) was if you tell someone you are going to do commodity trading, then turn around and trade currency, people will look at you like you just grew a second head.

And if a client gives approval for commodity trading and you go ahead and do currency trading instead, you have a lawsuit on your hands.
Salvos Rhoska
#746 - 2015-09-25 17:24:55 UTC
Anyone else ever dream of what they could do in/to EVE if they won a large multimillion jackpot in a lottery?
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#747 - 2015-09-25 17:27:37 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Anyone else ever dream of what they could do in/to EVE if they won a large multimillion jackpot in a lottery?


lol

"Wait a minute...open buy orders for plex are now 0.01 isk? Somebody dumped 5000 plex on the market?"

Although, in all honesty I could think of better things to spend my money on. Still...

When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces...do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?

Salvos Rhoska
#748 - 2015-09-25 17:35:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Tank Murdock Jnr wrote:
Still...


Indeed... Pirate

I buy a ticket every week.
If EVE goes insane overnight, it may or may not be me.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#749 - 2015-09-25 18:17:56 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Time is the commodity. I am selling my time for X dollars. A plex is worth 20 dollars which translates into a quantity of my time spent. As my earnings differ from others, that makes its value different. As such, I trade my time for a specific unit of isk. People spend said time for said isk. therefore as a commodity, I trade my time for your time if you are willing to pay.


I would not say that time is a commodity more that is has value. After all you cannot sell me extra hours for a given day, week, or even my life. But an employer who would like me to spend time helping him do something that can make him even more money will be willing to pay me for some of my time/labor.

And yes, you are correct a PLEX is worth $20 (for simplicity's sake lets just round up). If you have to spend 20 hours in game grinding to buy a PLEX then your implicit wage is $1/hour. Now maybe you really, really like grinding and you'd happily pay $2/hour to do it...in which case 20 hours of grinding and buying a PLEX makes sense. If not, then pay $15/month directly and spend far, far less time grinding.
[/quote]

It was a pretty loose connection to being a commodity. But it is pretty much like you say. When I put a plex up, I am essentially putting up so much time that I worked. When somebody puts up isk, that isk represents their time worked in game. I have what I think my game time is worth, so that is what I would sell plex for. Others are weighing how much work it would take to get that plex and weighing the same.

At some point, an average will be reached or price will get so high if there is enough people who even are willing the temptation to sell plex. I dunno if there is a single term to define a plex really. It is a commodity with supply and demand, but essentially it is another form of currency? Most assuredly there is some player who is into economics who could do a whole paper on PLEX in eve!

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Salvos Rhoska
#750 - 2015-09-25 18:30:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Status quo:
PLEX and PCU have now stabilised. Regardless of speculations as to who/why/how, this is our current status quo till Spring (particularly as in EVE, unlike many other games, we dont play during summer).

PLEX:
If you cant afford the new PLEX rate, adapt and diversify. Accept it as a positive challenge and an incentive to go and do things you have not done before. Either that, or focus on making more RLM or saving on uneccessary expenses.

Market:
It is to be expected that commodities prices across a wide spectrum will gradually drop as this settles in, as individual players dump their stockpiles inorder to facilitate PLEX purchase ingame for the foreseeable future. Its a buyers market (even though reduced PCU implies less supply). Up to you how you define your thresholds, but I think even lowish buy orders have a good chance of being filled still, though the optimum for larger profits may have already passed 1-2 months ago.

Emmigration:
Rising PLEX costs, means a need for higher profits.
HS activity is "safe", yes, but increasingly less sufficient to meet PLEX costs (barring station/system trading, which is "safe" in a different way, but not nearly as easy as many claim it as).

I would anticipate more non-HS activity in the next months, and less HS activity, as HS players or HS alts look outwards for the profit potentials (especially inorder to PLEX) that are now more rational, against the sustained level of risk.

I also expect an increase in recruitment candidates, particularly for large NS alliances and their consitutuent corps, as HS entities attempt to to find a "safe" place to continue and grow their isk efforts, to match their increased PLEX costs. Unfortunately LS and WH space cant provide that, due to many factors which may need heuristic consideration from CCP somewhere down the line. NPC null carries some incentive, but not the "safety" that these HS emmigrants want.

This is a fantastic opportunity for those NS entities to exploit these HS immigrants, both as to rob them blind cos they are too stupid and coddled to have understood game mechanics and so trusting as to give all their assets away for "gratis transport", but also, more importantly and significantly, to source players who will grind activity levels/indexes nonstop in select systems, that other players find tedious. HS PvE carebears farm HARD. They are ideal for this when provided the defence they require to feel "safe". Sure, they are not much help in a CTA, but they will handle the rest. They probably ***** and whine a lot too, but who cares as long as they bring in the isk/material/index.

LS has created its own problems. PvP matters here more than anywhere else. If you want that, go here. But if you want profit, not so much.

WH is insular and basic survival is complicated and involved. Profits work, but this is, quite frankly, the hardest sector of all. Organisational complications in NS may trump this, but really its a very harsh and unforgiving environment, in all ways.

As I have tried to be recently, I focus on the positive.
Rising PLEX price increases isk requirements, and makes HS increasingly insufficient for purposes of PLEXing.
This is GOOD, because it forces players out of HS, into the rest of what EVE has to offer.

Adapt. Evolve.
Go where the isk is
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#751 - 2015-09-25 19:02:36 UTC
Nice, it's good to see plex has finally stabilized after becoming heavily inflated DUE to the alliance tournament winnings flooding the market.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#752 - 2015-09-25 19:35:11 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Status quo:
PLEX and PCU have now stabilised. Regardless of speculations as to who/why/how, this is our current status quo till Spring (particularly as in EVE, unlike many other games, we dont play during summer).

PLEX:
If you cant afford the new PLEX rate, adapt and diversify. Accept it as a positive challenge and an incentive to go and do things you have not done before. Either that, or focus on making more RLM or saving on uneccessary expenses.

Market:
It is to be expected that commodities prices across a wide spectrum will gradually drop as this settles in, as individual players dump their stockpiles inorder to facilitate PLEX purchase ingame for the foreseeable future. Its a buyers market (even though reduced PCU implies less supply). Up to you how you define your thresholds, but I think even lowish buy orders have a good chance of being filled still, though the optimum for larger profits may have already passed 1-2 months ago.

Emmigration:
Rising PLEX costs, means a need for higher profits.
HS activity is "safe", yes, but increasingly less sufficient to meet PLEX costs (barring station/system trading, which is "safe" in a different way, but not nearly as easy as many claim it as).

I would anticipate more non-HS activity in the next months, and less HS activity, as HS players or HS alts look outwards for the profit potentials (especially inorder to PLEX) that are now more rational, against the sustained level of risk.

I also expect an increase in recruitment candidates, particularly for large NS alliances and their consitutuent corps, as HS entities attempt to to find a "safe" place to continue and grow their isk efforts, to match their increased PLEX costs. Unfortunately LS and WH space cant provide that, due to many factors which may need heuristic consideration from CCP somewhere down the line. NPC null carries some incentive, but not the "safety" that these HS emmigrants want.

This is a fantastic opportunity for those NS entities to exploit these HS immigrants, both as to rob them blind cos they are too stupid and coddled to have understood game mechanics and so trusting as to give all their assets away for "gratis transport", but also, more importantly and significantly, to source players who will grind activity levels/indexes nonstop in select systems, that other players find tedious. HS PvE carebears farm HARD. They are ideal for this when provided the defence they require to feel "safe". Sure, they are not much help in a CTA, but they will handle the rest. They probably ***** and whine a lot too, but who cares as long as they bring in the isk/material/index.

LS has created its own problems. PvP matters here more than anywhere else. If you want that, go here. But if you want profit, not so much.

WH is insular and basic survival is complicated and involved. Profits work, but this is, quite frankly, the hardest sector of all. Organisational complications in NS may trump this, but really its a very harsh and unforgiving environment, in all ways.

As I have tried to be recently, I focus on the positive.
Rising PLEX price increases isk requirements, and makes HS increasingly insufficient for purposes of PLEXing.
This is GOOD, because it forces players out of HS, into the rest of what EVE has to offer.

Adapt. Evolve.
Go where the isk is



Or find a new game.....much closer to reality.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#753 - 2015-09-25 19:46:59 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Adapt. Evolve.
Go where the isk is



Or find a new game.....much closer to reality.

Is that an offer of your stuff? Please contract it to me at the station of your choice.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#754 - 2015-09-25 19:47:37 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Adapt. Evolve.
Go where the isk is



Or find a new game.....much closer to reality.

Is that an offer of your stuff? Please contract it to me at the station of your choice.


Dammit! You beat me too it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#755 - 2015-09-25 19:54:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Black Pedro wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Adapt. Evolve.
Go where the isk is



Or find a new game.....much closer to reality.

Is that an offer of your stuff? Please contract it to me at the station of your choice.


Since you're getting his stuff, can I have YOUR stuff? You don't need double stuff, and I have no stuff! Twisted
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#756 - 2015-09-25 19:55:02 UTC
Rising plex increases isk requirements?

Nope, my isk needs are the same as when I started playing. I understand that some people, it is tough to have spare cash, but if isk is tight now, some can afford it. So how do they? Can a person not get a cut of that? It can be harder so put more time to it. Combine eve fun with plex. Fewer shinies, but still enjoying if it isnt a hard farm?

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Zihao
Doomheim
#757 - 2015-09-25 20:40:34 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Adapt. Evolve.
Go where the isk is



Or find a new game.....much closer to reality.

Is that an offer of your stuff? Please contract it to me at the station of your choice.


Since you're getting his stuff, can I have YOUR stuff? You don't need double stuff, and I have no stuff! Twisted


I would like to announce my full support for this product and/or service. Please pay it forward to me and I'll doub.... er, send half to another deserving party.
Salvos Rhoska
#758 - 2015-09-25 21:15:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Higher PLEX price prompts players to move out of HS (barring a few specialised activities), as profits are higher elsewhere.

Refusal to adapt, such as by moving out of HS for greater profits against increased PLEX price, has resulted in any number of whine posts veiled as "CCP plz improve PvE", which actually means they just want better HS PvE payout.

I dont doubt many of these players would rather leave EVE, than leave HS.
Everyone can conclude for themselves whether that is a rational or conducive choice.
Imo, it isnt. Its weak and pathetic.

Yes, many HS activities some people are used to, are now hard pressed to match PLEX.
Too bad. Too sad.

If you want greater profits, adapt your activities and/or, move to another sector where profits are greater.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#759 - 2015-09-25 21:18:44 UTC
I dunno man, player base is jaded and super lazy.

Change doesn't promote adapting, it promotes giving up entirely and moving on to something else.

They see they now have to spend 20% more time to get what they got before, and have to decide to put forth a large initial investment of time in the act of moving their selves and assets to a new area to reestablish their base line time requirement, Or to just say "screw this" and quit playing until things are "fixed".
Salvos Rhoska
#760 - 2015-09-25 21:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Divine Entervention wrote:
I dunno man, player base is jaded and super lazy.

Change doesn't promote adapting, it promotes giving up entirely and moving on to something else.

They see they now have to spend 20% more time to get what they got before, and have to decide to put forth a large initial investment of time in the act of moving their selves and assets to a new area to reestablish their base line time requirement, Or to just say "screw this" and quit playing until things are "fixed".


Yes, you are correct.

However no new content would fix anything in regards to these lazy players expecting spoonfeeding.
Yes, dumping more safe HS PvE isk down their throats would make them happy, but then what.

Huge amounts of Isk are possible, if you use your brain, and especially if you get out of HS, where the systemic values/hr of various activities are categorically higher than in HS.

When PLEX was lower, HS seemed a sweet place to be "safe" and farm.
That time had now passed.

If they want to survive on PLEX, they are going to have to adapt/diversify/move.
If they would rather leave the game than even attempt that, its sad, but there isnt much that can be done about it.

(Notice also, btw, how its almost entirely only HS players (alongside "improve pve plz") who are the ones complaining about PLEX prices. This is not coincidental. Its because, in many ways, HS is the hardest hit, as HS in many ways has systemically less profit than elsewhere, as well ad, unfortunately, these same types who are most resistant to changes to their routine.)

I cant sympathise with a player who would rather leave EVE, than step outside of HS inorder to earn isk to remain in EVE, especially in the current circumstances.