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Vanguard Skill Point Changes

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Salvos Rhoska
#161 - 2015-09-25 15:58:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Tippia wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I pointed out and expressed reasons.

No. You invented a reason — one that has nothing to do with why new players are given 350k additional SP.


False, as I have not argued new characters should not be given 350k additional SP.

Furthermore, you are making a core mistake in referring to them as new players, rather than characters, which belies that you are not entirely understanding the concepts and specific issues involved here, as is reflected throughout your posts overall.

I have given several (not one, as agin you falsely represent) rational, supported reasons for why the SP boost should be rendered as universal, none of which you have addressed nor argued successfully.

Thats three strikes in one post.
Up your game, Tippia, because this is starting to look very much like belligerence and intellectual dishonesty in argumentation purely for selfish reasons, rather than maintaing the impetus and consensus towards an objective discussion.

I shouldnt have to call you out on these. Its a waste of my time amd patience, and you shouldnt be perpetrating them in the first place. Take a few minutes and think about what you are doing.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#162 - 2015-09-25 16:04:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
False
So you changed your mind then? You are not saying that everyone who isn't a new character should be given 350k SP. Because that's the only way for what I said to be false.

But of course, you are arguing exactly that, so you did invent a reason that has nothing to do with why new characters are given that SP boost. You came up with one that serves a completely unrelated and self-serving purpose, and which does not target the group that actually needs to be seen to with this transition.

Quote:
I have given rational, supported reasons for why the SP boost should be rendered as universal
And it is spurious, nonsensical, unrelated to the actual change, and as a result completely arbitrary, which is why it sets such a hideously bad precedent.



Oh, and I retract my previous number. if you want to remove the systemic inequality based on character creation time, you actually have to hand out closer to 50 million SP — I forgot learning skills and early attributes.
Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
#163 - 2015-09-25 16:06:46 UTC
Either the devs are out of touch with their own game or unwilling to address the issues

Skillpoints got little to do with whats killing the fun.

Reading the forum might help tho.
Salvos Rhoska
#164 - 2015-09-25 16:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Tippia:

1) You claimed my arguments stated I was against giving 350k to new players. That was false, and I have stated so correctly.

2) You claimed I had given one reason. That too was false, and I have stated so correctly.

3) You referred to new players, whereas this change affects new characters. That was false, and I stated so corrrectly.

4) You have not addressed or argued my points, rather, ignored them or superficially labelled them spurious, nonsensical or other such nonsense.. That too I stated correctly.

This is not going well for you.
I shouldnt have to point out these obvious errors, as you shouldnt be making them in the first place.
Im going to take a page out of your own book, and insist you acknowledge your mistakes before this discussion can proceed.

Maekchu:

"This realization, has made me question your ability to conduct a rational and calm argument with opposing points of view. Thus deeming any higher degree of involvement, besides posts on a discussion board, a complete waste of time."

Right, so because I extended the opportunity to discuss the issue in realtime over voice, in an attempt to promote our understanding of each others positions , since written language is failing us, means Im the one incapable of rational and calm argumentation.

I agree. Discussing with you, here or otherwise, is an utter waste of my time.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#165 - 2015-09-25 16:28:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
You claimed my arguments stated I was against giving 350k to new players.
Incorrect.
I claimed that you invented an argument for a change that had nothing to do with the reason new characters are getting an SP boost.
Which you did.

Quote:
You claimed I had given one reason.
Incorrect.
I claimed that there was no reason to do so. That's why you had to invent one, making the whole thing a dangerous precedent of arbitrarily handing out SP.
Which it does.

Quote:
You referred to new players
So did you. So put a sock in it.

Quote:
You have not addressed or argued my points
Incorrect.
I have explained exactly why they're either nonsensical or just outright inapplicable, and why, in the end, you're just trying to invent a reason why should get SP out of nowhere.
And yes, you getting SP due to a change that has nothing to do with you is indeed spurious, nonsensical, and out of nowhere.


Let's put it this way:
What does this patch change for you that warrants you being given 350k SP?
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#166 - 2015-09-25 16:31:06 UTC
This is why CCP should just not bother doing anything retroactively, then nobody gets upset. (Haha)

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#167 - 2015-09-25 16:31:22 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

"This realization, has made me question your ability to conduct a rational and calm argument with opposing points of view. Thus deeming any higher degree of involvement, besides posts on a discussion board, a complete waste of time."

Right, so because I extended the opportunity to discuss the issue in realtime over voice, in an attempt to promote our understanding of each others positions , since written language is failing us, means Im the one incapable of rational and calm argumentation.

I agree. Discussing with you, here or otherwise, is an utter waste of my time.

What? Had to go back and read my own post just to make sure, I actually wrote what I thought I wrote.

How did you conclude from that post, that it is because you offered to conduct the discussion on comms, that I deemed you irrational and unable to conduct a calm discussion featuring opposing views?

I clearly state, that it is because you don't acknowledge the existence of a counter-argument, even though it has been thrown at you for the past few pages of this thread. This is the realization, that made me conclude that any additional involvement past the occasional post, is just not worth the time.

If you cannot see the argument in written form, then I don't see how conveying the same point over a voice application would change this fact.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#168 - 2015-09-25 17:03:27 UTC
There was once an old lady walking down a street when she saw a little boy crying.

Why are you crying? Asked the lady
Mommy gave me a dollar to buy ice cream and I lost it. Replied the boy
Oh don't cry over that. Said the old lady and handed the boy a dollar

The boy looked at the lady, took the dollar and started crying even more

Well why are you crying now? Asked the old lady a little frustrated
Because if I hadn't lost my dollar I would have two now.

Tldr, welcome to eve, htfu.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2015-09-25 17:48:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Riko
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Tippia:

1) You claimed my arguments stated I was against giving 350k to new players. That was false, and I have stated so correctly.

2) You claimed I had given one reason. That too was false, and I have stated so correctly.

3) You referred to new players, whereas this change affects new characters. That was false, and I stated so corrrectly.

4) You have not addressed or argued my points, rather, ignored them or superficially labelled them spurious, nonsensical or other such nonsense.. That too I stated correctly.

This is not going well for you.
I shouldnt have to point out these obvious errors, as you shouldnt be making them in the first place.
Im going to take a page out of your own book, and insist you acknowledge your mistakes before this discussion can proceed.

Maekchu:

"This realization, has made me question your ability to conduct a rational and calm argument with opposing points of view. Thus deeming any higher degree of involvement, besides posts on a discussion board, a complete waste of time."

Right, so because I extended the opportunity to discuss the issue in realtime over voice, in an attempt to promote our understanding of each others positions , since written language is failing us, means Im the one incapable of rational and calm argumentation.

I agree. Discussing with you, here or otherwise, is an utter waste of my time.



Please ignore the two of them. Their ship toasting has lowered the level of dicussion in this thread. The two of them have successfully given me cancer.

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Zihao
Doomheim
#170 - 2015-09-25 17:48:35 UTC
This is what happens when you let vidya get in the way of installing gentoo.
Sacu Shi
UK Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#171 - 2015-09-25 19:32:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Sacu Shi
Johnny Riko wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Basically no matter what CCP does there will be a group that wants more SP. The reality is as has been pointed out, many players have gotten or lost tons of SP before due to changes like this. It is minor by comparison, unfortunately.


I don't even want the SP. But if they are going to give new players something that they didn't give everyone else then I think it is fair to compensate everyone.

If it were up to me There would be no SP increase for new players. I don't think that is the way to make EVE more accessible. If that were the case then people would just buy high SP characters and then be l33t PVP pilots.

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

The car you sold me 5 months ago is now available with 2 litres of fuel for the same price I paid, can I has?"

Yeah that'd go down well in real life.


Terrible attempt at an analogy.
It would be more like "Sir, the car we sold you 5 months ago has been deemed unsafe due to a fault with this component. Please bring your vehicle in to have the faulty part replaced free of charge."

Coincidently that is what actually happens IRL. Whoops.


Actually, try this one.

"Sir, the car you bought 5 months ago with air conditioning as a £599 option, now comes with free air conditioning as standard."

Would you insist that the car manufacturer recalled every vehicle to have air conditioning fitted for free because that would be 'fair'?

I thought not.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#172 - 2015-09-25 20:02:03 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:
The two of them have successfully given me cancer.
No, that would be your self entitlement and poor foruming skills.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#173 - 2015-09-25 20:12:07 UTC
why are we arguing with this dude, I want 350k sp free! and on all my same account alts too because they didn't start with it either and they clearly need it! not a selfish request at all, think of the new players!

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Amber Starview
Doomheim
#174 - 2015-09-25 20:30:15 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
why are we arguing with this dude, I want 350k sp free! and on all my same account alts too because they didn't start with it either and they clearly need it! not a selfish request at all, think of the new players!


No new player or newer player would argue against this ,only bitter vet who scream HTFU unless it's about entosis or some mechanic that makes it harder or less fun for them .
Vortexo VonBrenner
Doomheim
#175 - 2015-09-25 20:53:30 UTC
OP you should become an SA member and post this op there verbatim asap.


EvE security zones in pictures

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#176 - 2015-09-25 20:59:59 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
why are we arguing with this dude, I want 350k sp free! and on all my same account alts too because they didn't start with it either and they clearly need it! not a selfish request at all, think of the new players!


ANyone who want theirr alt to get this for free should be directed to the Biomass button so they get it for free when they re-create their character.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#177 - 2015-09-25 21:03:59 UTC
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
OP you should become an SA member and post this op there verbatim asap.



OP I suggest not following this recommendation.

That forum strongly discourages independent thought.
smokeAjoint
Catch And Release Privateering
#178 - 2015-09-25 21:06:29 UTC
Pandora's Box

** legalize it**
VaL Iscariot
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#179 - 2015-09-25 21:39:23 UTC
goon /thread
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#180 - 2015-09-25 21:41:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolai Serkanner
deleted ....

Missed 8 pages of posts. Apologies.