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Vanguard Skill Point Changes

First post First post
Author
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#121 - 2015-09-25 11:48:54 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:
It's the principle.
What principle?
The only ones who are even remotely negatively affected by this are characters made in somewhere in the 15–21 day span preceding the patch, who might conceivably come out with less total SP than they'd had under the new system. For anyone else, it has no effect or impact on them.

Quote:
You can look at it the other way, if it's such a small amount of SP, then what's the problem in reimbursing everyone?
Nothing is removed. There is nothing to reimburse, especially not to everyone.
Salvos Rhoska
#122 - 2015-09-25 12:00:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
I agree with OP.

Im for 350k addition to all existing EVE accounts at the point of change (regardless of whether they are subbed at that point).

Not just because Ill take any SP I can get, but because its fair to everyone.

Furthermore the kind of community hype even this small SP addition to existing accounts would generate helps source back some lost players (SP whores that we all are).

The net SP inflation across EVE is insignificant, and since all characters woyld benefit from it equally, it merely begningly raises the status quo of everyone equally, as well as providing an opportunity for some small diversification/specialisation which prompts more player created content.

Its win/win/win really, for everyone involved.

Its a windfall that benefits new players most obviously, but from which there is no harm (rather only benefits) in applying it to all of EVEs characters.

350k SP to everyone, hurts no one.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#123 - 2015-09-25 12:13:12 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
350k SP to everyone, hurts no one.
Arbitrary handouts for no reason hurts everyone with the precedent it sets.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#124 - 2015-09-25 12:30:52 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Command ships... Stfu with your two weeks.

Haha, holy ****, command ships. all that training and they aren't even good.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#125 - 2015-09-25 12:35:42 UTC
I say anyone under 5 mil SP gets the free SP!

Not today spaghetti.

Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#126 - 2015-09-25 12:36:29 UTC
Go back to Starship Troopers.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#127 - 2015-09-25 12:37:51 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
Amazed at the amount of entitled, butthurt people that this change has revealed...

Jealousy at its best.


but but but, CCP is giving new characers like 7-10 DAYS more SP.

I paid for my 1st 7 days of SP (no trial crap here) and the sub cost was 15 bucks for a month. CCP is not giving new characters 1/4th of a month for FREE. Therefore, I demand CCP reimburse me the $3.75 worth of game time they are basically stealing from me to give to new players!

Also, F y'all sarcasm meters, I'm for real. Now, did someone see where I laid my bottle of Xanax, I think I may need it because of all this injustice.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#128 - 2015-09-25 12:40:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
350k SP to everyone, hurts no one.
Arbitrary handouts for no reason hurts everyone with the precedent it sets.


+1

This is why everyone cries for free SP if something happens to the server, because CCP was trying to be nice that one time and gave everyone free SP,.

Now it's some kind on entitlement people expect despite the fact that everyone here agrees to the EULA and the EULA says CCP doesn't owe us anything even when the servers die for a time.
Memphis Baas
#129 - 2015-09-25 12:41:49 UTC
You know what, it's such a minuscule amount of points that it probably doesn't even matter.

They can probably make it "free 350k skillpoints to all ACTIVE accounts" and maybe get a few more people to subscribe for a month. Other MMO's run "double xp weekends" or "double bounty weekends" as promotions all the time.

Newbies created under this promotion would get the 350k the newbies start with under the new system, plus 350k that everybody gets as a limited time promotion. That way they feel even better about trying out the game.
Salvos Rhoska
#130 - 2015-09-25 12:41:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Tippia wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
350k SP to everyone, hurts no one.
Arbitrary handouts for no reason hurts everyone with the precedent it sets.

Precedent:
The existing precedent is already being broken in Vanguard. The one which governed all generated accounts uptil now.
The breach of the existing precedent is harmonized by applying the same boost equally throughout the entirety of the character base. The precedent of a common SP status quo remains intact, and the only remaining breached precedent is that of adding SP to the pool in the first place (as mitigated by the above, since everyone would get it).

Arbitrarity:
The increase for new characters is not arbitrary (obviously) .
The function and purpose is evidently in providing more options for players.
However, if this is not added to all characters, it becomes arbitrary from the perspective of the remainder of characters not included in the change. This, again, is reconciled in a universal SP boost. For purposes of comparative proof, imagine if 10yr vets got a 350k boost. From the perspective of new players, this would be seen as arbitrary and unequitable (and rightly so).

I understand the "slippery slope" side as well, and though this is technically termed an argumentative fallacy, in practice (in my experience and view) it more often than not actually proves itself true. I hope SP boosting (let alone SP buying), does not become a real or common thing. Perhaps. We dont know.

Excluding existing characters from the boost, exacerbates the precedential breach, and its arbitrariness in equity between characters created before or after the change.

Not making the 350k boost universal creates problems in equity, precedent and arguments of arbitrariness.
Making the 350k boost universal resolves all of those, and maintains status quo and the integrity of precedent, because nobody is excluded, and hence cannot argue loss of equity, nor that the change which only applies to characters created thereafter would constitute an arbtrary one, as they benefit from it equally.

Pragmatically, all it does is raise the SP base of the entirety of EVE.
There is no rational, nor enlightened self-interest argument, that can contravene that.

Tippia and Jenn:

By all means, resist the addition of 350k to the New Player pool, on your basis of breach of precedent and arbitrariness, if you so see it. I understand you dont want anyone getting free SP. That is valid, because it is universal. You expect the same for everyone.

I resist it also, unless it is applied as universal to all characters, in which case the precedent of SP status quo is maintained, and it cannot be argued as arbitrary, since everyone benefits from it equally.

Understand also that this change applying 350k only to new characters, is a far more severe breach of precedence, and an arbitrary act, than is adding 350k to all characters past present and future (which includes new characters).

The precedent of arbitrarily adding SP ONLY to certain characters (in this case, new ones post change), is far more severe than the precedent of adding SP to ALL characters (which is entirely benign in equity and cannot be considered arbitrary, as there is no one who does not benefit from it exactly equally to everyone else).
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#131 - 2015-09-25 13:15:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Precedent:
The existing precedent is already being broken in Vanguard. The one which governed all generated accounts uptil now.
Which precedent is this and how is it broken? There have been four of five different “status quo:s”, none of which have remained intact. This is the first time it's moving in this direction and affected this particular group. Given the group that is affected, something is needed to smooth out the gap that the change creates — a gap that simply does not exist outside of this group.

This is something vastly different from the unprecedented and completely unmotivated notion of just handing out 350k SP to everyone for no reason.

Quote:
Arbitrarity:
However, if this is not added to all characters, it becomes arbitrary from the perspective of the remainder of characters not included in the change.
Quite the opposite. It is completely arbitrary if other characters get it because there's no reason to give them any SP. It's the lack of reason that makes it arbitrary.

Quote:
Excluding existing characters from the boost, exacerbates the precedential breach, and its arbitrariness in equity between characters created before or after the change.
…except that there is no broken precedent and no arbitrariness. It only applies to a very specific and clearly defined group for a very specific and clearly defined reason.

Giving away 350k SP for no reason has no precenent. Giving it to everyone, with no appreciation of why it is needed is arbitrary. Any suggestion otherwise is ignorant of history and language.

Quote:
I understand you dont want anyone getting free SP. That is valid, because it is universal.
Then you don't understand at all.
smokeAjoint
Catch And Release Privateering
#132 - 2015-09-25 13:20:55 UTC
Cat Snake

** legalize it**

Salvos Rhoska
#133 - 2015-09-25 13:27:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Tippia:

Are you for, or against, adding 350k SP to new characters?
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#134 - 2015-09-25 13:29:20 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Tippia:

Are you for, or against, adding 350k SP to new characters?


I'll save Tippia the sixteen paragraphs and just say:

Yes.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Maekchu
Doomheim
#135 - 2015-09-25 13:34:55 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

I resist it also, unless it is applied as universal to all characters, in which case the precedent of SP status quo is maintained, and it cannot be argued as arbitrary, since everyone benefits from it equally.

But this change is not meant to benefit everyone equally. It is meant to benefit new players get a few skills they eventually would train anyway.

Changes in EvE happen all the time that in some way will not be beneficial to someone. Should I feel entitled to my 50M isk I used on clones, when people nowadays don't have to pay for clone upgrades? Did they reimburse all SP lost, when they removed SP loss on death?

CCP has already stated what they would consider a fresh character in this case, since they will provide additional SP for characters created within 2 weeks of the Vanguard release.

So it just happened that older players didn't benefit from the change this time. How can someone feel envy towards a fresh character getting bumped from 50k to 400k?

So all these arguments about "principals" or "fairness" are moot. This change was not meant to be fair, it was meant as a very small (and negligible) buff for new characters. Why this is negligible is argued around page 3.

So can we all just stop feeling sorry for ourselves (besides us, who already don't care about this change) and just be happy that CCP throws a bone towards the new players from time to time. I mean, they already have to sit through a garbage tutorial system and cannot fly **** for ships.

I also don't envy the homeless, when someone throws them a quarter.


Salvos Rhoska
#136 - 2015-09-25 13:55:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Val'Dore wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Tippia:

Are you for, or against, adding 350k SP to new characters?


I'll save Tippia the sixteen paragraphs and just say:

Yes.

"Yes" is not an answer which fits the syntax of the question.

Correct syntax is either for or against.

Yes/no is not an answer.

Maekchu wrote:
I also don't envy the homeless, when someone throws them a quarter.


Why should new characters, created after a certain date, have more starting SP than characters created before that date?
Celise Katelo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#137 - 2015-09-25 13:57:31 UTC
I once went on a date Shocked , we decided to get icecreams & went for a walk along the beach. Before i could even get a taste, the bloody icecream fell to the ground Shocked

Topic of conversation was so much better afterwards P

P.s

I would like CCP to inject me some skill points in Agility, so i can be like the "Flash", because i didn't catch the icecream before it hit the ground.

EVEBoard ...Just over 60million skill points, each skill was chosen for a reason. I closed my eyes & clicked another skill to train... "BINGO...!!!" ... "This time i got something usefull"

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#138 - 2015-09-25 14:03:32 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Why should new characters, created after a certain date, have more starting SP than characters created before that date?

Because it's better for the game.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#139 - 2015-09-25 14:03:38 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
350k SP to everyone, hurts no one.
Arbitrary handouts for no reason hurts everyone with the precedent it sets.

Precedent:
The existing precedent is already being broken in Vanguard. The one which governed all generated accounts uptil now.
The breach of the existing precedent is harmonized by applying the same boost equally throughout the entirety of the character base. The precedent of a common SP status quo remains intact, and the only remaining breached precedent is that of adding SP to the pool in the first place (as mitigated by the above, since everyone would get it).


If we're going to be fair, we should be entirely fair. Didn't new accounts used to start with nearly 1 million skill points before that was nerfed down hard? So it would only be fair to deduct that number of skill points from everyone else. Otherwise, you're just punishing all the newbies who started with 5,000 SP, or whatever it was that I started with.

Fair's fair. Right?

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#140 - 2015-09-25 14:08:10 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


Why should new characters, created after a certain date, have more starting SP than characters created before that date?


Because they were created under a different set of rules.