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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Salvos Rhoska
#2221 - 2015-09-25 11:25:24 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:

I didn't see any arguments against EvE in my post, I love the game and want it to still be here 10 years from now. The social factor is a strength of the EvE community, not the game itself. In a roundabout way yes EvE attracted those people in the first place but if all they do now is talk then they aren't really playing the game anymore are they?

Could you perhaps say why my suggestion for improved PvE is so disagreeable? I certainly do not mean improved as in better ISK-generation.


Arguments now added to the previous post in question.
Review at your leisure.
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2222 - 2015-09-25 11:37:16 UTC
Any goals or objectives or is it just a forum decline in number?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2223 - 2015-09-25 12:45:51 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Neh I was more talking about PCU holding steady during this summer season, which means it didn't start to turn into RAPID. This thread is an alarm of things to come, which didn't happen, as there was no turning into RAPID!

How about: after the summer season (which summer always slows down) and CCP fixes the issue with sov, PCU will start to increase RAPID!!

OP had it wrong, thread is a fraud.
Yeah I think it was more of a reactive "whoa! PCU dropping like mad!" thing just badly thought out. I'd be very very surprised though if the PCU had a strong increase after the summer (which is pretty much over). It still showing signs of dipping and has dropped far more than other summers.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#2224 - 2015-09-25 13:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Mr Mieyli wrote:
(...)

I do firmly believe that PvE needs to change and that doing so would bring in more new players than a reworked NPE or extra starting skills.


What makes EVE unique is player generated content. Yet PvE haves no tools for content generation.

It's very simple. Either you PvP and then sky is the limit, or you PvE and become involuntary content for PvPrs without any way out but become a PvPr you like it or don't, want it or don't.

That has been costing CCP 80% of their new subscribers for years. But it didn't mattered since they were coming in as fast as they were quitting.

Now they don't come in that much, and the future development plans don't have anything for them. Actually, the future development plans don't even have a place for new players, since they're just an additional layer to the endgame being enjoyed by veterans.

With dwindling PCU and no plans for PvErs and noobs, the future doesn't looks very bright, not until the current development plan ends and CCP does something else.

If they can, financially and demographically... What?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2225 - 2015-09-25 14:02:25 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
(...)

I do firmly believe that PvE needs to change and that doing so would bring in more new players than a reworked NPE or extra starting skills.


What makes EVE unique is player generated content. Yet PvE haves no tools for content generation.

It's very simple. Either you PvP and then sky is the limit, or you PvE and become involuntary content for PvPrs without any way out but become a PvPr you like it or don't, want it or don't.


He keeps saying it, but saying this over and over doesn't make it true.

For example, via the use of a mobil depot and warp core stabs, you can turn the Guristas 10/10 (the Maze) and the Angel 10/10 (Angel Cartel Naval Shipyard) into "PVE traps" for people trying to kill you. In the 1st room of the angel 10/10 you don't have to kill everything, so you can use those npocs you leave alive as 'guards'. In the MAZE,. you can for through the 1st 4 rooms without killing anything, meaning that people trying to kill you have 4 rooms of npcs to get through (ie, they can't)

You can do it with any 9/10 as well. At the 3rd Stage of any fleet staging point, if you MJD twice straight up from the beacon, you end up outside of npc energy neut range. the 2nd spawn in that room spawns 3 neut towers.

You leave them alive, kill the station at long range and kill enough approaching NPCs to tank. Because everyone warping into the 9/10's 3rd stage gets pulled to the beacon (like in lvl 5 missions), that means that anyone who wants to kill you has to survive being neuted to death, ANY has to fly through a cloud of npcs to get to you more than 200 km off the beacon.

In low sec, you can use incursion rats and your own warp core stabs to make you invulnerable while traveling. And you can use the same kind of trick as in DEd 9/10s to turn lvl 5 missions into PVE traps for gankers

Even in high sec you can set PVE traps. Get a bling ship, undock and let the gankers see you. Warp into Recon 3 of 3 (the missions with the explosive gas cloud) and MJD away. Wait. And try not to laugh to hard as a swarm of catalysts warp in and go pop (the gankers can't tell what kind of mission they are flying into before they land).


The point here is that these people who complain about not being able to fight back using PVE never ever tried to fight back by using PVE. They gave up without trying and ran straight to CCP begging for help. CCP gives wonderful tools like mobile depots and MJDs and target lcok breakers and still they complain. It exposes their agenda, they want CCP to nerf the PVPrs, they don't give a flip about improve pve.

Thankfully, Indahmawar Fazmarai is not in the least bit representative of the real EVE PVE community. We don't need extra help, CCP gave us every tool we needed.

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#2226 - 2015-09-25 14:13:22 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Yeah I think it was more of a reactive "whoa! PCU dropping like mad!" thing just badly thought out. I'd be very very surprised though if the PCU had a strong increase after the summer (which is pretty much over). It still showing signs of dipping and has dropped far more than other summers.


We're right in the middle of the historical low point in PCU, which is not summer, but fall (and a bit of late summer).

Given the timing of the drop in high sec activity, I still think it's possible, even likely, that the combination of increased PVE rewards in null sec and the sudden relevance of ADMs in assuring system security combined to retire a great many high sec PVE alts of null sec players, who are now bearing it up in null sec For The Alliance!

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2227 - 2015-09-25 14:16:40 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Yeah I think it was more of a reactive "whoa! PCU dropping like mad!" thing just badly thought out. I'd be very very surprised though if the PCU had a strong increase after the summer (which is pretty much over). It still showing signs of dipping and has dropped far more than other summers.


We're right in the middle of the historical low point in PCU, which is not summer, but fall (and a bit of late summer).

Given the timing of the drop in high sec activity, I still think it's possible, even likely, that the combination of increased PVE rewards in null sec and the sudden relevance of ADMs in assuring system security combined to retire a great many high sec PVE alts of null sec players, who are now bearing it up in null sec For The Alliance!


Very much so. Where once most of my characters were in high sec, CCP turning up the anomalies escalation chances and making the changes that made crappy space less crappy, I'm back to enjoying life in null with all my mains. Hell, I only go to empire get get mods i can get in null. And my mining buddies are mining up them indexes.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#2228 - 2015-09-25 14:26:31 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Webvan wrote:
Neh I was more talking about PCU holding steady during this summer season, which means it didn't start to turn into RAPID. This thread is an alarm of things to come, which didn't happen, as there was no turning into RAPID!

How about: after the summer season (which summer always slows down) and CCP fixes the issue with sov, PCU will start to increase RAPID!!

OP had it wrong, thread is a fraud.
Yeah I think it was more of a reactive "whoa! PCU dropping like mad!" thing just badly thought out. I'd be very very surprised though if the PCU had a strong increase after the summer (which is pretty much over). It still showing signs of dipping and has dropped far more than other summers.

Maybe, but more like after they fix the sov issue which they admit is not working. It's all about the pew. In fall pcu starts to recover some, and maybe a sov fix will get them logging in more again.

Overall though, all mmo's seem to be having problems. I mean if it is a problem. Others are having a much worse issue with player activity. MMO's werent always popular. There was just some freak game called WoW, and Blizzard already had a giant fanbase before WoW and drew them in, got the ball rolling there. Some played other mmo's, mostly WoW clones, but WoW lost 6mil accounts... that mostly went with other Blizzard games. Blizzard increased earnings after losing 6mil WoW accounts.

Some EVE players play WoW, like how if you look at some of the EVE apps in google play, they have the 'people also installed' list, it's loaded with WoW apps. They left WoW, many of those may have just left EVE too, just fed up with mmo's. Just like other mmo's, shedding some accounts. Just less about the game and more about the genre.

But EVE is full of a lot of players from other oldschool games, not just WoW. And those oldschool games are either not around any longer or just not worth playing after modernizing years ago, like to draw in WoW players. There is no where else to turn hardly. I just can't see a rapid loss or any really great loss over time due to that, not so much beyond this point.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2229 - 2015-09-25 14:54:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Jenn aSide wrote:
He keeps saying it, but saying this over and over doesn't make it true.

For example, via the use of a mobil depot and warp core stabs, you can turn the Guristas 10/10 (the Maze) and the Angel 10/10 (Angel Cartel Naval Shipyard) into "PVE traps" for people trying to kill you. In the 1st room of the angel 10/10 you don't have to kill everything, so you can use those npocs you leave alive as 'guards'. In the MAZE,. you can for through the 1st 4 rooms without killing anything, meaning that people trying to kill you have 4 rooms of npcs to get through (ie, they can't)
That seems to be kinda what he's saying though. That's PvP content. Effectively in order to generate content through PvE you have to shift your aim to PvP, which is kinda true. Actual PvE mechanics in EVE suck if you look at them objectively. They only really work because most people who are happy with them are happy because they like to split PvP with them.

Dersen Lowery wrote:
We're right in the middle of the historical low point in PCU, which is not summer, but fall (and a bit of late summer).

Given the timing of the drop in high sec activity, I still think it's possible, even likely, that the combination of increased PVE rewards in null sec and the sudden relevance of ADMs in assuring system security combined to retire a great many high sec PVE alts of null sec players, who are now bearing it up in null sec For The Alliance!
Sorry, but no other season has had this kind of drop. PCU is down to the lowest it's been since what, 2007/2008?

I doubt that we are eagerly awaiting the upsurge in null PvE players to save the day to be quite honest. The game is just becoming a bit stagnant and dull, and people are losing interest. Myself, I'm consolidating traders and industry ops and scrapping a bunch of characters so I can drop 12 accounts, because while it's been fun, there's just not enough going on to keep that level of interest. I mean seriously, some time in the next year, we might get a new style of POS, and they might unfuck sov. Super exciting(!)

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2230 - 2015-09-25 15:03:53 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
He keeps saying it, but saying this over and over doesn't make it true.

For example, via the use of a mobil depot and warp core stabs, you can turn the Guristas 10/10 (the Maze) and the Angel 10/10 (Angel Cartel Naval Shipyard) into "PVE traps" for people trying to kill you. In the 1st room of the angel 10/10 you don't have to kill everything, so you can use those npocs you leave alive as 'guards'. In the MAZE,. you can for through the 1st 4 rooms without killing anything, meaning that people trying to kill you have 4 rooms of npcs to get through (ie, they can't)
That seems to be kinda what he's saying though. That's PvP content. Effectively in order to generate content through PvE you have to shift your aim to PvP, which is kinda true. Actual PvE mechanics in EVE suck if you look at them objectively. They only really work because most people who are happy with them are happy because they like to split PvP with them


Protecting yourself using PVE mechanics is pvp content sure. EVE is a pvp centric game, every good PVEr knows that and uses available tools to complete the goal (the goal being filling the wallet). The mechanics are fine, it's just that people refuse to use them, or expect themepark mechanics in a game that does not do them.

I can't use PVE mechanics to keep my self safe while PVEing (no need to, because of the instancing) or even get pvp kills in STO, but I can in EVE.

What Fazmarai and his type want is mechanically secured PVE, and 'story telling' themepark PVE that is 'immersive'. Most PVErs in MMOs want that stuff. As EVE isn't for most people so too is EVE's PVE not for most MMO PVErs, it's for the kinds of people who enjoy it's brand of 'engineering challenge' gameplay, which is a distinct minority compared to the 'make me feel like an epic warrior' PVE in other games..
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2231 - 2015-09-25 15:16:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Jenn aSide wrote:
Protecting yourself using PVE mechanics is pvp content sure. EVE is a pvp centric game, every good PVEr knows that and uses available tools to complete the goal (the goal being filling the wallet). The mechanics are fine, it's just that people refuse to use them, or expect themepark mechanics in a game that does not do them.

I can't use PVE mechanics to keep my self safe while PVEing (no need to, because of the instancing) or even get pvp kills in STO, but I can in EVE.

What Fazmarai and his type want is mechanically secured PVE, and 'story telling' themepark PVE that is 'immersive'. Most PVErs in MMOs want that stuff. As EVE isn't for most people so too is EVE's PVE not for most MMO PVErs, it's for the kinds of people who enjoy it's brand of 'engineering challenge' gameplay, which is a distinct minority compared to the 'make me feel like an epic warrior' PVE in other games..
I agree that no PvE should ever be themepark or completely safe, but come on, there are loads of improvements they could add to make them more interesting. #1 on my list is failure states. It's not really possible to fail a mission without intervention from another player. You don't have to stop the evil baddies before they finish blowing up their target or anything like that, you just show up, mince the exact same set of NPCs that mission generated last time and hand in. It would be nice to have more ways to fail.

That leads on to randomisation. everything about PvE from the rats to the layour of asteroids and locations of ice belts is static. Shake it up a bit. Get ice randomly generating around the region, get rats to call in different support and be positioned differently. Have it so that when you save the damsel you might get offered an optional side mission to go after someone.

To me, it's all just about shaking it up a bit so that PvE is a bit less static. It's always seemed strange to have these fast-moving PvP mechanics but completely static PvE ones.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#2232 - 2015-09-25 15:21:45 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
We're right in the middle of the historical low point in PCU, which is not summer, but fall (and a bit of late summer).

Given the timing of the drop in high sec activity, I still think it's possible, even likely, that the combination of increased PVE rewards in null sec and the sudden relevance of ADMs in assuring system security combined to retire a great many high sec PVE alts of null sec players, who are now bearing it up in null sec For The Alliance!
Sorry, but no other season has had this kind of drop. PCU is down to the lowest it's been since what, 2007/2008?

I doubt that we are eagerly awaiting the upsurge in null PvE players to save the day to be quite honest. The game is just becoming a bit stagnant and dull, and people are losing interest.


You're reading me wrong. I'm not saying that the current season explains the PCU decline. I'm saying that this is the season when the PCU is always lowest, historically, relative to the annual average. Nobody expects it to magically return to 45k by Christmas.

Anyone who is expecting an upsurge to come based on my hypothesis should bone up on reading comprehension: the upsurge would have been coincident with the decline in high sec activity, which already happened long since.

Sov will be fun when the players allow it to be, and not one instant sooner.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2233 - 2015-09-25 15:58:13 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
It is what they did to anger the player base. Dumbed down the game.
No, they changed the core game into some other game, a different game, in a complete and utter surprise to the existing players, no heads up what so ever, no discussion at all.

During the riots, one that over shadow the jita riots by a long shot, in forums they said it was to get new players. Complete disregard for the existing playerbase, for some other players they wanted to get (many claimed console players as it turned into twitch based button mashing). The way I could best compare it directly to EVE, think as if all of the sudden a patch was published, and lowsec and Null was ripped from the game leaving only highsec. All POS deleted, no pvp allowed period, and every time you shot your guns you had to keep tapping keys for them to keep firing as well as point your ship at the target. As well, skills here are removed, and replaced with a pre defined class like in WoW.

That was a sudden change. I've seen others like SWG change to that over time, same results, it is only the death of the game.



What you make is a very crucial point. Discussion. That is why this is on so many pages. Half derailments, but half discussions. The vets I say to **** off are the ones that want no change. Everything dies. I am not saying make a new game, was saying add to the existing mechanics.

Keep ganking/sov/etc. All the stuff that makes eve what it is. In the end, we have two choices.

1. Keep eve as it is for the current market. We won't get new players and it will just slowly die. that is the way things are.

2. Evolve and stay competitive.

For the case of evolution, eve is running double standards. We have everything from manufacturing, travel, skill training, something that is all time devoted. Attractive to tactical people like myself who prefer to take time, analyse and plan.

Then we have the other side. Ganking, zero purpose missioning, farm incursions, etc. Instant gratification which is an entirely different market.

As such eve is made up of two very different, and very identifiable player bases. One which likes a paced play. These people are the ones most likely to be long term subscribers.

The other is the instant gratification. Grab ships, gank, fight, etc. All valid plays, but eve doesn't have a valid structure for it. You have to do non gratifying things to get there. And now it has to compete with instant arena style games which do it better.


That is what I meant about not being afraid to **** people off. I see it all to often in rants and talks with former players. they like one, but quit because of the other. They love eve's rewarding and the fact that things are over a period of time, but then dislike that some stuff is pointless and "arcade-like"

From a business standpoint, I say CCP would be best picking one. Pick the one in which eve has the best tools for. Devoted play. Keep the same play styles, but make the structure solid and a unique market. Those that want the easy fight or no challenge to get to a point, well that is the gamble. To keep them, how many subs are they losing.

Lets look at it logically in my chats. People come to eve expecting a sandbox. So many rookies out there. I fly and help on the SoE epic arc all the time. That level of new accounts I see doing it every time I am in shows that there are tons of people trying. While talking, they like the pace of eve and potential. But the fact that everything is just a carnival game in the sandbox, they quickly lose interest and quit. Have a choice. Carnival games, or sov warfare. Why can everything from pve to ganking have that wide and developed structure?

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Samuel Wess
Doomheim
#2234 - 2015-09-25 16:48:35 UTC
Eve is too easy now, and there is no food chain. Maybe roll an Eve Classic server before supers for the vets Big smile

Walk into the club like "What up? I got a big cockpit!"

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#2235 - 2015-09-25 20:12:17 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Protecting yourself using PVE mechanics is pvp content sure. EVE is a pvp centric game, every good PVEr knows that and uses available tools to complete the goal (the goal being filling the wallet). The mechanics are fine, it's just that people refuse to use them, or expect themepark mechanics in a game that does not do them.

I can't use PVE mechanics to keep my self safe while PVEing (no need to, because of the instancing) or even get pvp kills in STO, but I can in EVE.

What Fazmarai and his type want is mechanically secured PVE, and 'story telling' themepark PVE that is 'immersive'. Most PVErs in MMOs want that stuff. As EVE isn't for most people so too is EVE's PVE not for most MMO PVErs, it's for the kinds of people who enjoy it's brand of 'engineering challenge' gameplay, which is a distinct minority compared to the 'make me feel like an epic warrior' PVE in other games..
I agree that no PvE should ever be themepark or completely safe, but come on, there are loads of improvements they could add to make them more interesting. #1 on my list is failure states. it's not really possible to fail a mission without intervention from another player. You don't have to stop the evil baddies before they finish blowing up their target or anything like that, you just show up, mince the exact same set of NPCs that mission generated last time and hand in. It would be nice to have more ways to fail.

That leads on to randomisation. everything about PvE from the rats to the layour of asteroids and locations of ice belts is static. Shake it up a bit. Get ice randomly generating around the region, get rats to call in different support and be positioned differently. Have it so that when you save the damsel you might get offered an optional side mission to go after someone.

To me, it's all just about shaking it up a bit so that PvE is a bit less static. It's always seemed strange to have these fast-moving PvP mechanics but completely static PvE ones.


Ignore Jenn, he's a troll and enjoys to lie about me.

I've proposed a few times how a player could generate PvE content for other PvErs, in the process of competing against other PvErs (aka PvP) and to get an advantage over players who skip PvE and focus on pew pew alone (that's PvP too).

That would be dynamic and player generated PvE with an impact on "pure" PvP.

(The irony with Jennatroll is that I am playing World of Warships right now. That's the kind of "themepark go back to WoW carebear" I am... Roll )
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#2236 - 2015-09-25 22:47:03 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:


Then we have the other side. Ganking, zero purpose missioning, farm incursions, etc. Instant gratification which is an entirely different market.

As such eve is made up of two very different, and very identifiable player bases. One which likes a paced play. These people are the ones most likely to be long term subscribers.

The other is the instant gratification. Grab ships, gank, fight, etc. All valid plays, but eve doesn't have a valid structure for it. You have to do non gratifying things to get there. And now it has to compete with instant arena style games which do it better.

No it goes on and on because people want to insist EVE is Dying™ and talk about their radical ideas to change EVE or else, but more to change EVE into their other game they play being "modern".

Having first logged into EVE 2004, I distinctly recall rats to shoot, ways to make an in-game income etc. w/o that you don't have sov space, no big alliances, nothing functions. EVE isn't dying, it needs no radical modernization. That's exactly what did in fact kill other existing games, and where EVE will be dying. Like I explained in my post on last page, this thread is a farce. There is no RAPID, it didn't happen, it wasn't starting, and in fact all mmo's have had some decline in the past years or so, and EVE has done much better than others.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2237 - 2015-09-25 23:28:25 UTC
But it isnt 2004 anymore. Yes, there have been improvements but what is wrong with more to the game? Eve isnt Dying, but ot isnt thriving either. I come and continue to post because I feel eve could offer much more without losing core gamplay. Just take what we have and build on it instead of continually rebuilding it.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2238 - 2015-09-25 23:40:02 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
I come and continue to post because I feel eve could offer much more without losing core gamplay.


I've seen you advocate repeatedly for the removal of core gameplay.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2239 - 2015-09-25 23:45:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
I come and continue to post because I feel eve could offer much more without losing core gamplay.


I've seen you advocate repeatedly for the removal of core gameplay.



Will be replying there next to address that. I am a firm believer in core systems and new player roles in Eve.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Avvy
Doomheim
#2240 - 2015-09-26 01:35:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

I disagree extremely strongly with everything in this (except perhaps logging in for social activity, which really isnt an argument against EVE as you falsely present it, but rather, again, a strength of EVE, that vets actually do that. If you can get people to want to log in just so they can chat with each other, that is a huge achievement for a game.).


That's not a great achievement for a game, it's a sign that those players are bored with the game and just login to chat with those that they have made friends with over the years.