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Vanguard Skill Point Changes

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Josef Djugashvilis
#61 - 2015-09-24 21:01:25 UTC
This thread is a case of much ado about nothing.

This is not a signature.
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#62 - 2015-09-24 21:09:27 UTC
Basically no matter what CCP does there will be a group that wants more SP. The reality is as has been pointed out, many players have gotten or lost tons of SP before due to changes like this. It is minor by comparison, unfortunately.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#63 - 2015-09-24 21:10:35 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
Johnny Riko wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
Johnny Riko wrote:

You really don't get it do you.
If you check my post history you will see I'm strongly adverse to increasing the skill points newbies get, and I never supported the idea of giving SP for the extended downtime.
The point of this thread is highlighting the hypocrisy in CCP's policy. In my opinion, this would be much more fair reallocation of SP compared to giving SP to something everyone, new and old experienced/was affected by.

No, I totally get what you are saying. I just disagree with what you are saying, because I feel your argument is weak and you honestly shouldn't feel entitled to anything.

There is a difference between the two cases you are highlighting.

New players creating new characters and getting a little SP buff, does not affect you in any way. The argument for that, can be seen above, as I argue that the SP difference is negligible.

When the server went down, it affected all EvE players. Meaning yes, it had an affect on your enjoyment of the game (simply because you couldn't log-in and enjoy space drama for a day).
Did CCP have to give you a SP refund? Not really. Although, it was a nice gesture of them to do it. I am sure they did it as a "Thank You" for putting up with them sorting out their hamsters.

Do you see the difference between the two cases and how you cannot directly link them?


I'm not entitled to anything. The fact remains that it is fair to give everyone who has already trained the skills a SP reallocation. If they removed a skill then those who had trained those skills would be given SP reallocations. The fact remains that those skills have for all intensive purposes being removed from the game because they are now given to you from the start. Clearly that is too much of a difficult concept for you to understand.

How is it different? CCP: "Sorry we've essentially made a weeks worth of skill training you paid for redundant, here is the SP back so you can spend it on other stuff!".

But you logic ignores the fact, that within that 5 month training advantage that you have, you could either have that extra 400k SP trained cause of optimization or be well on your way to that and more (Don't know the exact numbers, but as with the post Tippia made, it doesn't seem unrealistic).

You keep ignoring this very vital point. Your character has a great advantage over any newly created character, just by the fact that you should be able to just pop in those +5s if you wanted.

So with this, my argument is still that the SP buff for starting characters is negligible and is just a good way to adjust the starting point, considering the age of the game and their characters. At the end of the day, a 5 month character have enough of an advantage to make up for those 400K SP.

Since you have now, for two posts in a row, just stuck your fingers in your ears, while screaming "LALALALALA YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!". I will just conclude, that no matter what counter arguments are presented to you. You are not willing to have a rational debat about the topic, and instead just wish answers acknowledging your initial premise.

So I tip my hat to you sir, and calmly retreat back to my hideout (under the bridge) :D



I understand your argument. You're saying that if I optimised over the 5 months I would have saved over the 5 months more than 350k.

But my point is that if I had optimised as well as started after this SP change, then 5 months down the line I would be 350k (5%) better off in terms of SP. I don't understand why that's hard to comprehend.

And it's not just the SP amount, it's the actual principle. You still haven't answered my point about how if a skill is removed from the game, normally CCP reimburse the SP to all who trained it, so why not in this occasion?


Do you expect stores to reimburse you a few months after you purchased something because they just lowered the price under what you paid back then?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#64 - 2015-09-24 21:15:01 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Do you expect stores to reimburse you a few months after you purchased something because they just lowered the price under what you paid back then?

Do you remember the torrential downpour of tears when the collectors edition went on sale?

Some people are actually that entitled .

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#65 - 2015-09-24 21:25:20 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Do you expect stores to reimburse you a few months after you purchased something because they just lowered the price under what you paid back then?

Do you remember the torrential downpour of tears when the collectors edition went on sale?

Some people are actually that entitled .
"The car you sold me 5 months ago is now available with 2 litres of fuel for the same price I paid, can I has?"

Yeah that'd go down well in real life.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2015-09-24 22:10:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Riko
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Basically no matter what CCP does there will be a group that wants more SP. The reality is as has been pointed out, many players have gotten or lost tons of SP before due to changes like this. It is minor by comparison, unfortunately.


I don't even want the SP. But if they are going to give new players something that they didn't give everyone else then I think it is fair to compensate everyone.

If it were up to me There would be no SP increase for new players. I don't think that is the way to make EVE more accessible. If that were the case then people would just buy high SP characters and then be l33t PVP pilots.

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

The car you sold me 5 months ago is now available with 2 litres of fuel for the same price I paid, can I has?"

Yeah that'd go down well in real life.


Terrible attempt at an analogy.
It would be more like "Sir, the car we sold you 5 months ago has been deemed unsafe due to a fault with this component. Please bring your vehicle in to have the faulty part replaced free of charge."

Coincidently that is what actually happens IRL. Whoops.

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#67 - 2015-09-24 22:21:13 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:
Terrible attempt at an analogy.
It would be more like "Sir, the car we sold you 5 months ago has been deemed unsafe due to a fault with this component. Please bring your vehicle in to have the faulty part replaced free of charge."

That would indeed be a terrible attempt at an analogy since that's not even remotely the same as what's going on here.

Nothing is being retracted or removed or found at fault — they're offering a new baseline package, and if you're close enough to be a new buyer, you get that package. If you're too old to be counted as new, you got (and keep) the original package.
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2015-09-24 22:24:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Johnny Riko wrote:
Terrible attempt at an analogy.
It would be more like "Sir, the car we sold you 5 months ago has been deemed unsafe due to a fault with this component. Please bring your vehicle in to have the faulty part replaced free of charge."

That would indeed be a terrible attempt at an analogy since that's not even remotely the same as what's going on here.

Nothing is being retracted or removed or found at fault — they're offering a new baseline package, and if you're close enough to be a new buyer, you get that package. If you're too old to be counted as new, you got (and keep) the original package.



If there was nothing wrong with the old amount of SP that new players started with then why have they changed it?

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#69 - 2015-09-24 22:26:52 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Johnny Riko wrote:
Terrible attempt at an analogy.
It would be more like "Sir, the car we sold you 5 months ago has been deemed unsafe due to a fault with this component. Please bring your vehicle in to have the faulty part replaced free of charge."

That would indeed be a terrible attempt at an analogy since that's not even remotely the same as what's going on here.

Nothing is being retracted or removed or found at fault — they're offering a new baseline package, and if you're close enough to be a new buyer, you get that package. If you're too old to be counted as new, you got (and keep) the original package.



If there was nothing wrong with the old amount of SP that new players started with then why have they changed it?

And

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#70 - 2015-09-24 22:30:58 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:


If there was nothing wrong with the old amount of SP that new players started with then why have they changed it?


To keep the vehicle analogy, I am am motorcycle enthusiast, love riding. I grew up riding Honda, but needed something for more extreme roads. My market pointed to the Triumph Tiger XC. Well, a month after I bought mine, Honda announced that the Africa Twin was coming here. Lets say the bike I bought was a honda, say a modified NC750x. Should Honda have to credit me simply because they improved their design?

Just cause something is good, does not mean it cannot be better. At some point, that announcement is made and guaranteed that there is usually a few people who got in juuuuust before that announcement was made. In the end, you are above in SP. guaranteed. So what if they start with more, you are still ahead. The one thing that would be fair though is that if you created the character just before (say didn't know the change was coming) and were below that SP point when it came out, then said person should get bonus SP enough to make them that minimum. Just like a minimum wage increase. If you are below that before the change, still gotta be bumped up.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#71 - 2015-09-24 22:31:24 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:
If there was nothing wrong with the old amount of SP that new players started with then why have they changed it?

Because a better baseline package is assumed to be more attractive to new customers.

That's why your analogy was so stupid: you tried to paint it as a manufacturing flaw, rather than a different sales pitch.
Ima GoodGirl
Aria Shi's Wasted ISK
#72 - 2015-09-24 22:33:09 UTC
Not even real Goons shiptoast this bad.

Yay for plastic Goons.

Bring back 900K starting points and really put him on tilt CCP.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#73 - 2015-09-24 22:34:45 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:
Terrible attempt at an analogy.
Certainly better than the one you attempted.

Quote:
It would be more like "Sir, the car we sold you 5 months ago has been deemed unsafe due to a fault with this component. Please bring your vehicle in to have the faulty part replaced free of charge."
Except you weren't sold faulty goods, you were sold fit for purpose goods 5 months ago that now come with a free gift.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#74 - 2015-09-24 22:45:11 UTC
Hahaha, plastic goons.

Again, such a petty thread.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Dradis Aulmais
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2015-09-24 23:01:38 UTC
he ferret is the domesticated form of the European polecat, a mammal belonging to the same genus as the weasel, Mustela of the family Mustelidae. They typically have brown, black, white, or mixed fur.

In various places throughout the world, an ancient, horrifying sport has made a resurgence. Ferret-legging is an endurance event wherein participants drop two live ferrets into their pants, which are cinched off at the ankles and waist. The animals claw and bite fiercely in an attempt to get free. The winner is the man who can withstand this torment the longes

Despite their popularity, there are many places where it is illegal to own a ferret, including New York City and the state of California.

SO SAY WE ALL

Dradis Aulmais, Federal Attorney Number 54896

Free The Scope Three
Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#76 - 2015-09-24 23:03:37 UTC
I share the sentiment that a new players life is rough but this while it will help also hurts. I remember as a new player the feeling of rapid progress as I loaded a bunch of 30 min skills. This change skips some of that rather pleasant feeling. Have you considered instead of adding skill points just lowering the requirements to fly t2 from 5 to 4. That way they can get into a hac, bomber, recon, command ship or whatever else faster but they still have the feeling of progress which was so pleasant. Those 5s would still have pkenty of meaning.
Ian Morbius
Robby Altair Corporation
#77 - 2015-09-24 23:05:31 UTC
"All new characters will now start with,... 400,000 skillpoints."
Patchnotes always make me laugh.

Hell,.... get them an even million. Pirate
Another Posting Alt
Zerious Fricken Biziness
#78 - 2015-09-24 23:07:26 UTC
Ima GoodGirl wrote:

plastic Goons.


You have my +1.
Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
#79 - 2015-09-24 23:20:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Esrevid Nekkeg
Johnny Riko wrote:
If it were up to me There would be no SP increase for new players.
As luck would have it, it's not up to you.

Edit: Go go Ferrets!

Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format. Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#80 - 2015-09-24 23:37:28 UTC
So it's going to be 400 000sp +1 plastic goon?

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato