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Cutting skill bloat.

Author
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-09-24 00:23:10 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Leonardo Adami

Wow, the hate is strong with you bitter vet. Please enlighten me as to how spending a few months training fitting skills makes us all understand the intricacies of EvE [:roll: wrote:
I'd argue a pilot that can fit his/her ship properly and get out into space to actually play the game will learn more of the intricacies of eve then playing skillque online.

This isn't about giving newbros a chance to fight among the vets, it's about player retention. And as a vet if you don't want to see evolve and grow why are you here in the features and ideas section?

Also the sticky above is clearly labeld remapping/buying neither of which I've discussed here so you can STFU since they're isn't a relevant sticky above for what I've proposed.

If you're sensitivities are hurt and bothered by these so called "COD space invader" which I'm not the maybe you need to HTFU or GTFO of my post.



1.) without all those "fitting skills" as you call them we suddenly have new bros without a clue to:
a.) know how to make ISK
b.) spending RL money to simply buy the items (t2 gear, purps, deadspace whatever it is) and fit them
c.) then crying about losing said money because they lost said ship.....and GEAR they should never had in the first place
d.) crying about vets in Ibis's killing their blinged out stuff they never learned how to use.
e.) resulting in rage quitting, giving bad reviews elsewhere....oh and mucking about our forums with their tears.

2.) your idea as listed above among other maybe more detailed reasoning is bad for newbie retention.

3.) If you know the sticky im talking about then you saw the list of things from the ISD....your post is related to on that list..use it.

4.) and if you cant handle the critical views and criticism from other vets then dont post...or otherwise maybe before you the post button....read what you typed and then find the arguments against it that might make sense and even squash your post before someone else critiques in a way you dont like. Im not going to leave your posting alone now.....for every idiotic way you try to argue your point i will come back now to argue how idiotic it is.


Nothing in your first post was constructive in the least. Fitting skills have no effect on your first point including all sub bullets listed. Number 2 is opinion and noted. still disagree with number 3. Number 4 again nothing in your first post came close to constructive criticism just you spewing vomit from your mouth.

I'm glad you're here for long haul and for my amusement. Thank you.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#22 - 2015-09-24 00:44:14 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
Leonardo Adami wrote:

Not at all, what I'm saying is that core fitting skills are an antiquated group of skills similar to that of learning skills. Currently if you train for Gallente battlehip 5 but don't spend several months training fitting skills you can't fit your gallente battleship properly. How does this even make sense? I have trained 32 days to get gallente battleship 5 (not counting drones/gunnery/armor/navigation skills) but i can't fit my modules?

Can you show me a module that you can't fit without fitting skills, if you have trained drones+gunnery+armor+navigation?



If fitting skills where tied into ship skills then fitting modules wouldn't be a problem. You can fit any module you've trained for however not having the fitting skills trained doesn't mean you'll be able to fit all the modules you want.

You didn't answer my question.

Can you show me a module that you can't fit without fitting skills, if you have trained drones+gunnery+armor+navigation?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but currently, you can fit 1600mm plates to a Domi without having the +5% powergrid skill trained to max.


Further, if the ability to fit modules increased with your ship skill level, shouldn't your max speed and agillity also increase too? Your explanation for fitting applies equally to other ship stats too.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2015-09-24 01:42:58 UTC
OP, just train AWU V like the rest of us did. It's good for you.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#24 - 2015-09-24 01:45:36 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
OP, just train AWU V like the rest of us did. It's good for you.

Not that I have a single Fit that needs V, not even sure I have many fits that need AWU at all.
But it was nice to have trained when I wanted to fly Marauders.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2015-09-24 01:59:21 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Not at all, what I'm saying is that core fitting skills are an antiquated group of skills similar to that of learning skills.
I'd say you're half right. It's true, the core fitting skills are an antiquated group of skills and should be removed. That's true of all skills.

In fairness to the Learning skills though, they were a special meta-class of horrible. I think the only thing that beat Learning was the first iteration of character creation which would give a new player the choice between starting Frigate 5 or Industry 2.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#26 - 2015-09-24 03:02:46 UTC
Id be up for making them 2-3% per level and making awu only require wu lvl 4.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#27 - 2015-09-24 04:06:36 UTC
theres only 2 fitting skills in the game that you really need at lv 5 which are the ones that raise CPU and Powergrid.

all others don't have to be above lv 1 most of the time to fit mods. Its not months and month to fit things its a couple days.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#28 - 2015-09-24 06:57:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Lady Rift wrote:
theres only 2 fitting skills in the game that you really need at lv 5 which are the ones that raise CPU and Powergrid.

all others don't have to be above lv 1 most of the time to fit mods. Its not months and month to fit things its a couple days.

Makes me wonder what he defines as fitting skills? Only the CPU and PG upgrade or also A/WU, Cap Management/Cap System Op, Navigation, Electronic Upgrades, E-Grid Upgrades, maybe even Navigation and Warpdrive Operation? If it's only the first 2, it could work, if it is all of the above, it ends up in a clusterscrew up.

Also, I am absolutely not a fan of the idea that I have to train every ship skill to V in order to get maximum fitting resource capabilities out of ship hulls. By training CPU/PG management individually, I have this objective done for all ships int he game in a fairly short amount of time and I am not coerced to train ship skills to V where it's not absolutely immediately necessary. By immediately I mean that I do not need BS V in order to fly a BS properly. With this change, I would have to train $faction$ BS V, $faction$ BC/C/D/F in order to be able to use certain fittings in the first place. This is not appealing at all.

I also do not understand the reasoning behind it that it would make sense to train ship skills in order to get more power output or computer processing power from it. These systems are roughly the same and are taught in basic training (ie. the current fitting skills), the ship skills are meant as special training in order to get the most performance out of a ship's particular roles and weapon characteristics, not how to get more power from the reactor in addition to that.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#29 - 2015-09-24 07:32:20 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
By immediately I mean that I do not need BS V in order to fly a BS properly. With this change, I would have to train $faction$ BS V, $faction$ BC/C/D/F in order to be able to use certain fittings in the first place. This is not appealing at all.
.



And we know ccp would tack on the "lost" fitting skills in someway to this. Put another, more sp train time for the 5, and 4,3,2,1.


Also insert malcanis' law. I have many ships 5 already. Vet makes out better. Except for t2, I am not 5 for some t2.

Which has me wonder, op, how is t2/t3 being handled?

Does player start all over at the t2 ship? As in crap grid. Its a different ship....your system would apply.

Before you answer...look at t2 5's. Then think who really wants to be go back to crap fitting skills because all they did was go from a rifter to a jag/wolf. Or a pest to vargur. here is where the current system is nice.

You learn this once and done. Your system your new bro's are not getting the nice toys faster really. If the goal is t2 they are waiting till that t2 is 4 or 5'd to do anything with it. Put another way....they are stuck in the t1 you are trying to free them from regardless.

Several classes of t2 per ship class, t3 exists at 2 ship classes (now, who knows about the future)....op do you really want to have your fitting skills go to crap on each of these? When you have the current one time and done?

Sigras
Conglomo
#30 - 2015-09-24 07:52:15 UTC
So basically instead of having a few low level skills that are "required" and then you have perfect fitting, you want to make it "required" to to train any ship you want to fly to level 5 in order to have a perfect fit?

This is sheer lunacy, and is actually worse than the current system. Noobs already complain that they dont have enough variety, how do you think they're going to feel when they have to train any ship they want to fly to 5?

"oh but it isnt required, they'd just train it to level 4 like they do now" i can already hear you saying...
Right now when they train Gallente Cruiser 4 they miss out on 5% damage and 7.5% tracking on the thorax; after your ridiculous proposal they'd be missing:
5% damage
7.5% tracking
5% CPU
5% PG
2% weapon PG discount
5% weapon CPU discount

Yeah, even I'd be willing to say thats required...
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#31 - 2015-09-24 18:13:27 UTC
my opinion is almost directly opposite:

1. core skills are awesome because they apply to every ship.

2. what needs cutting is the time to train everything else in the game, more ship diversity for every player because it doesnt take 3 years to train up another ship and all its mods.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#32 - 2015-09-24 18:28:50 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
my opinion is almost directly opposite:

1. core skills are awesome because they apply to every ship.

2. what needs cutting is the time to train everything else in the game, more ship diversity for every player because it doesnt take 3 years to train up another ship and all its mods.



show me a switch from one ship to another that requires 3 years to train into?
Nyu Kaminari
Doomheim
#33 - 2015-09-24 21:17:43 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Who honestly likes training fitting skills? Pretty much no one. We train'em cause we have to.

I propose we remove all fitting skills and tie them into ship training instead.

For example. If you want to have perfect fitting skills for a slicer/hurricane/dominix then you'd have train their repsective ship skill to 5. Which makes sense in my opinion, I put the time in to train minmatar battlecrusier skill to level 5 I should be able to fit hat ship accordingly without have to put several more months into fitting skills.

But wait, fitting skills apply to all ships. I understand that but a newbro won't have access to the range of ships a veteran will. So I still believe this would benefit them.

This will, reduce the amount of time new players have to trian those "not so fun" skills. I believe doing so will help with new player retention and allow them to still progress in game and have the feeling that they're acccomplishjng something without being overly burdened with core fitting skills. Allows players who want to specialize and max their fittings out do so by requiring they have level ship skill trained to level 5. And if your flying specific ships all the time you should probably have that ship skill to five anyway.

If your only argument against this is soemthig along the lines of "I had to train them so should new players I'll consider that an invalid argument and friendly bump. "

If you have them trained CCP could reimburse those skillpoints to players like they did with learning skills.

Thoughts?



I just cannot bring myself to agree with this. It is unrealistic (not saying you want this now) that CCP invests time on something that I am sure 75% + of its population would turn their noses up at. I would also like to bring to the table that a newbro's First year is chaotic regardless; especially because it is their only account and they will likely be trying to train a little bit of everything across the board possibly spreading skill points out evenly. If newbros did manage to skill switch into Willpower + Perception or vise versa for Spaceship command training (T1 and T2's respectively), they would be screwing themselves out of all of the INT + MEM training that is absolutely required let alone the drone skills if they were unfortunate enough to choose Gallente.

It would all leech more time then simply training the fitting skills (most with a very low multiplier) to 4 w/ an even spread. They could then just use the bonus remap to specialize afterwards which I can only hope new players do now. Also I would like to add that each ship they trained into would tunnel them more quickly towards T2's but because this would then be prioritized, the newer players would be lacking a lot of the specialized modules (due to skill focusing), that require Level 4 and 5 training.

Example: Broadsword - Propulsion Jamming 5 / Graviton Physics IV: Requiring Science 5 & POWER GRID MANAGEMENT V.

So you see, it all swings full circle. power grid management 5 is of course included and as you know is a fitting skill. not only a requirement for the ship but for proper use of its modules. once you start taking this stuff away, It disrupts the skill balance of the entire game and actually causes newbros much much more of a problem. That and it strips the requirements for the modules themselves which makes no sense. There are just some games that you have to work hard at and keep playing to earn a sense of accomplishment.

I'd rather spend a few months training core skills then having a damned heart attack every time I get into a new ship and find out I need 2 more remaps...
Mavros Pete
Doomheim
#34 - 2015-09-24 21:41:15 UTC
Once upon a time , learning skills were a must, but got removed because they affected skilling only. Fitting skills affect all ships. You could add them in the base attributes of ships, but then which ones r we talking about, CPU and PG skills? they are easy to skill, not too much hustle. AWU on the other hand takes time to get to 5 and opens up siege module skill .

You newer players have an easy ride if you ask me. No more forgot to upgrade my clone== loss of skills. No more learning skills. No more bs 5 for caps. Even commands are more accessible. Whereas back in the day, EvE was sweeter, cuz of all the risk.

Anyway, fittings skills are nuttin, its a one off training session, then u r good for life.
Eugene Melvin
Doomheim
#35 - 2015-09-24 22:48:59 UTC
As a noob, the best training advice I received was "train the fit, not just the ship".
So easy, I just load a fitting into EveMon and presto it shows me what I actually need as a training base for the FIT and the ship.
Took a bit to get my API figured out for PYFA, but now it works great for me.

I also saw a number of related skills in just about all the fits I want to fly, so it was easy to setup a training plan that covered all the basic fitting skills (CPU and PG mostly).

I see where you are going with the OP, but disagree that it makes anything better for me as a newbro. I like the universal skills that spread across multiple ships and fits, it really helps me train a CLASS of ships.
Frigates first...Blink
Zhaceera Armerarram
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-09-24 23:41:56 UTC
Someone who says "what cant you fit without training only core skills" and have the balls to say he is a veteran player, gotta be kidding.

Even in the sheetiest web of fits you have to list the skills needed.

There is a huge difference in flying a battleship you just got the skill to fly, with standard tech I modules and rigs, and someone flying a battleship with lvl 5 skill for it and even fitting the same tech i modules with 1 year worth of skills on many things besides the core skills.

There are some fits you can do only having a given number of skills all to lvl 5.

You cant deny that. That is part of what EVE is. And people who likes some others MMOs have a hard time with that.

Problem is, EVE has no progression, no XP from doing this or that, and no "bonus skill" for kissing the grass of NPCs. So how else could someone make commitment to the game worth something ?

If you like to make marathons of 24h playing to "level up" and get all the "XP" you need to cap level, you are playing the wrong game.

"If justice is not for everyone, it is for no one."

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-09-24 23:55:08 UTC
Absolutely horrid idea when training for several types/races of ship. For instance on can currently train ~4 skills for general fitting and get the most out of all but a few ships with special module fitting bonuses tied to them. This is granted regardless of the individual ship skill level, allowing fittings that consume most of the available fitting resources but don't draw on the ships bonuses to be available without much investment into the ship skill. That would no longer be possible as proposed.

Further, needing to max longer ship skills in greater number for the same effect far outweighs the potential gains of the suggestion for ships you want to be effective with but don't necessarily want to train to V.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#38 - 2015-09-25 02:44:30 UTC
Scanned this so forgive me if this has been covered.

-1

What do you do for a ship like the Myrmidon that can be tanked for shields or armor with near equal effectiveness?
Do you tie these support skills to an armor tank because that is more traditional for a Gallente ship?
If so you have just removed a very wide array of player choice in how to fit this ship because they will be stuck having to use armor tank.

If you give both sets of support skills to those who are training the Myrm do you give both sets of support skills to all ships?

No matter how you try to twist this it is a bad idea.

New players need to learn how to determine what skills are important to train and to what level they really need to be trained to instead of being handed everything for little or no effort. New players also need to understand that a wide range of support skills trained to level 3 or 4 for the fit you are flying is infinitely more important than training one single skill to level 5 and it often takes very little extra time to do this.

This post represents the real idea behind skill training that all new players need to learn.
And if the person behind this character is a true new player and this is not just a new character then he / she has learned this lesson very quickly and it will serve him / her well over their time in EvE.
Eugene Melvin wrote:
As a noob, the best training advice I received was "train the fit, not just the ship".
So easy, I just load a fitting into EveMon and presto it shows me what I actually need as a training base for the FIT and the ship.
Took a bit to get my API figured out for PYFA, but now it works great for me.

I also saw a number of related skills in just about all the fits I want to fly, so it was easy to setup a training plan that covered all the basic fitting skills (CPU and PG mostly).

I see where you are going with the OP, but disagree that it makes anything better for me as a newbro. I like the universal skills that spread across multiple ships and fits, it really helps me train a CLASS of ships.
Frigates first...Blink


Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#39 - 2015-09-25 04:04:46 UTC
Let's remove all SP requirements from all ships and all modules. It would be more balanced if everyone could do everything perfectly from day 0. Having requirements is dumb.

Everything should also be free. It's tedious to aquire isk.
Zhaceera Armerarram
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2015-09-25 10:51:44 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Let's remove all SP requirements from all ships and all modules. It would be more balanced if everyone could do everything perfectly from day 0. Having requirements is dumb.

Everything should also be free. It's tedious to aquire isk.


And like the other topic, every ship should have the same signature radius so a BS can instalock a frigate.

Interceptor is dumb. LOL

"If justice is not for everyone, it is for no one."

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