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Breaking war-dec's. Questions and a small rant :)

First post
Author
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#201 - 2015-09-24 15:35:55 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
do the new structures not make wars kind of irrelevant?

i mean assuming the pupose of wars is to fight over anchored structures which it seesm like ti should be.

Nope, the only way to remove them in highsec will be via wardec as I think they're going to have concord protection.


it seems like that might be the case from reading through the blog and threadnaught.

forums.  serious business.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#202 - 2015-09-24 15:45:15 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lol, it wasn't balanced. They just made it a bit more expensive at the low end and took off the limiting factors. Those changes made it even more unbalanced. No way did you see groups deccing 200 corps full of noobs. Back then you had to make choices over who to wardec, rather than just blanket wardeccing. Now it's so broken there's no point in making a highsec corp that isn't just for wardecs, tax shields or solo pos holders. I'd love to see the day when people can actually make workable corps of all varieties in highsec without the certainty of being wardecced and farmed into non-existence.

You didn't answer the question: how is it imbalanced?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#203 - 2015-09-24 16:03:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lol, it wasn't balanced. They just made it a bit more expensive at the low end and took off the limiting factors. Those changes made it even more unbalanced. No way did you see groups deccing 200 corps full of noobs. Back then you had to make choices over who to wardec, rather than just blanket wardeccing. Now it's so broken there's no point in making a highsec corp that isn't just for wardecs, tax shields or solo pos holders. I'd love to see the day when people can actually make workable corps of all varieties in highsec without the certainty of being wardecced and farmed into non-existence.
You didn't answer the question: how is it imbalanced?
Because it's more rewarding to mass wardec soft targets than it is to go after people with a reasonable chance, thus the whole concept of risk/reward across the mechanic is broken. It would be like if L1 distribution missions were more rewarding than L4 combat missions. We've covered this. Wake up.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
#204 - 2015-09-24 16:11:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Aquilan Aideron
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
I guess so. And with EvE sandbox means the devs having made the deliberate choice of implementing means of targeting new players/corps rather than excluding them.
If you're excluded then you're not playing in the sandbox Roll



Oh, we arent excluded when gank alliances relegate us to statons and npc corps? However did I fail to notice this before?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#205 - 2015-09-24 16:21:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
I guess so. And with EvE sandbox means the devs having made the deliberate choice of implementing means of targeting new players/corps rather than excluding them.
If you're excluded then you're not playing in the sandbox Roll
Oh, we arent excluded when gank alliances relegate us to statons and npc corps? However did I fail to notice this before?
How are you excluded? Are you somehow prevented from playing Eve because you're in an NPC corp?

They're there as a refuge for those who don't wish to take the risk of being wardecced, the 11% tax rate is payment for wardec immunity. Joining or creating a player corp means that you forego that immunity in exchange for an often lower tax rate and a more close knit group.

Each has its advantages and disadvantages.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
#206 - 2015-09-24 16:36:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Aquilan Aideron
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
I guess so. And with EvE sandbox means the devs having made the deliberate choice of implementing means of targeting new players/corps rather than excluding them.
If you're excluded then you're not playing in the sandbox Roll
Oh, we arent excluded when gank alliances relegate us to statons and npc corps? However did I fail to notice this before?
How are you excluded? Are you somehow prevented from playing Eve because you're in an NPC corp?

They're there as a refuge for those who don't wish to take the risk of being wardecced, the 11% tax rate is payment for wardec immunity. Joining or creating a player corp means that you forego that immunity in exchange for an often lower tax rate and a more close knit group.

Each has its advantages and disadvantages.

How am I not being excluded from playing EvE the way I want in a npc corp? It's nothing but a chat, its only advantage is being safe from a broken and exploited game feature and bored vets.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#207 - 2015-09-24 16:39:06 UTC
Not sure about using the term "excluded", but it is dumb that you effectively get punished for wanting to play alongside others in a MMO, especially considering wardecs are a mechanic that only works in the highest security section of space.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#208 - 2015-09-24 16:41:35 UTC
Aquilan Aideron wrote:

How am I not being excluded from playing EvE the way I want in a npc corp? It's nothing but a chat, its only advantage is being safe from a broken game feature and bored vets.


Who told you you get to play this game "the way you want"? EVE is a sandbox, means you can play how you want, and everyone else can too. Some people to choose to stop you playing how you want, which means your options are fight back, learn to evade, outsmart them in some way, or uninstall.

It's not hard, I've been doing it for 8 years. But it's totally impossible if you cling to the entitlement mentality (ie the idea that you should be 'left alone' in a game that has no such barriers) that has no place in this game.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#209 - 2015-09-24 16:47:54 UTC
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
How am I not being excluded from playing EvE the way I want in a npc corp?


You're entitled to try to play the way you want. None of us are entitled to success.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
#210 - 2015-09-24 16:50:56 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Aquilan Aideron wrote:

How am I not being excluded from playing EvE the way I want in a npc corp? It's nothing but a chat, its only advantage is being safe from a broken game feature and bored vets.


Who told you you get to play this game "the way you want"? EVE is a sandbox, means you can play how you want, and everyone else can too. Some people to choose to stop you playing how you want, which means your options are fight back, learn to evade, outsmart them in some way, or uninstall.

It's not hard, I've been doing it for 8 years. But it's totally impossible if you cling to the entitlement mentality (ie the idea that you should be 'left alone' in a game that has no such barriers) that has no place in this game.

Whats the point of a sandbox game so heavily biased, as represented by the wardec mechanic? Its just punishing anyone who doesnt get it in their head to frustrate others. Not exactly quality work on part of the devs.

o7
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#211 - 2015-09-24 16:51:22 UTC
Late to the party, what's this rubbish about battleships getting nerfed?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#212 - 2015-09-24 16:51:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
How are you excluded? Are you somehow prevented from playing Eve because you're in an NPC corp?

They're there as a refuge for those who don't wish to take the risk of being wardecced, the 11% tax rate is payment for wardec immunity. Joining or creating a player corp means that you forego that immunity in exchange for an often lower tax rate and a more close knit group.

Each has its advantages and disadvantages.

How am I not being excluded from playing EvE the way I want in a npc corp? It's nothing but a chat, its only advantage is being safe from a broken and exploited game feature and bored vets.
Once again, in what ways are you prevented from playing Eve because you're in an NPC corp?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#213 - 2015-09-24 16:52:45 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
How am I not being excluded from playing EvE the way I want in a npc corp?


You're entitled to try to play the way you want. None of us are entitled to success.


And yet in the Citadel chat V2 Black Pedro one of your group insisted that XL Citadels would not be allowed into hisec because people in hisec could not kill them easily, that sounds like entitlement to success to me. It is simply hypocrisy.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#214 - 2015-09-24 16:52:54 UTC
One thing reading, and my usual personal opinion is that the war dec mechanic is really just incomplete. We need to, as I always say, break it down to the core fundamentals.

What is the purpose of Eve? Of a war dec? In concept, It is essentially buying a permit of competition.

In reality, it makes combat casual.

Nothing in eve should be "casual" except stuff like in corp and dual combat for sport. Therefore, wardecs are good, the mechanics are far primitive.


I think first thing is get rid of concept as a "war". It should be exactly what it is, and that I cannot think of a word. Essentially an application for hostile business competition.

Take whatever you will of that, but I really think it should be that a person pays to get rights over another group, plain and simple. Almost like a bribe? But any war dec should not be global. Person pays CONCORD for permission to engage in combat vs another target in public space. But that has to be assigned to bring in the competition.

Trader wants somebody to stop running stuff to a system? Declare in that hub, gankers can declare against mining corps in their favorite hubs. Select systems, regions, constellation. War dec determined only by the range of space you are claiming.

So for example, some corp is doing major mission running out of sinq, you can declare that whole region. Two mining corps are in an area. One wants some belts, can claim that constellation or just a few key systems.

Cost is determined similar to office costs. Have some tally based on station services, sec status, usage and travel in system. So if you dec somebody just for jita, expect it to cost hundreds of mil a week whereas out in solitude might be pennies.

All of lowsec is covered in any base cost of a wardec which would be the current cost system. If the war is made mutual, then it becomes global.


Now, wardecs are effective for as a competition tool instead of just a grief/casual PVP tool.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#215 - 2015-09-24 16:53:54 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


And yet in the Citadel chat V2 Black Pedro one of your group insisted that XL Citadels would not be allowed into hisec because people in hisec could not kill them easily, that sounds like entitlement to success to me. It is simply hypocrisy.


Not killed easily, but not defended easily. Unlike low and nullsec, a tear down wardec will not have to worry about a combative third party.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Syeed Ameer Ali
Drunken Beaver Mining
#216 - 2015-09-24 16:58:58 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
One thing reading, and my usual personal opinion is that the war dec mechanic is really just incomplete. We need to, as I always say, break it down to the core fundamentals.

What is the purpose of Eve? Of a war dec? In concept, It is essentially buying a permit of competition.

In reality, it makes combat casual.

Nothing in eve should be "casual" except stuff like in corp and dual combat for sport. Therefore, wardecs are good, the mechanics are far primitive.


I think first thing is get rid of concept as a "war". It should be exactly what it is, and that I cannot think of a word. Essentially an application for hostile business competition.

Take whatever you will of that, but I really think it should be that a person pays to get rights over another group, plain and simple. Almost like a bribe? But any war dec should not be global. Person pays CONCORD for permission to engage in combat vs another target in public space. But that has to be assigned to bring in the competition.

Trader wants somebody to stop running stuff to a system? Declare in that hub, gankers can declare against mining corps in their favorite hubs. Select systems, regions, constellation. War dec determined only by the range of space you are claiming.

So for example, some corp is doing major mission running out of sinq, you can declare that whole region. Two mining corps are in an area. One wants some belts, can claim that constellation or just a few key systems.

Cost is determined similar to office costs. Have some tally based on station services, sec status, usage and travel in system. So if you dec somebody just for jita, expect it to cost hundreds of mil a week whereas out in solitude might be pennies.

All of lowsec is covered in any base cost of a wardec which would be the current cost system. If the war is made mutual, then it becomes global.


Now, wardecs are effective for as a competition tool instead of just a grief/casual PVP tool.


What, a suggestion for wardec reform that is both original and actually makes sense? You must be in the wrong forum.

I'd love to declare war on a whole highsec system or region, or even the entire Jita-Amarr pipe.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#217 - 2015-09-24 17:01:39 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
How am I not being excluded from playing EvE the way I want in a npc corp?


You're entitled to try to play the way you want. None of us are entitled to success.


And yet in the Citadel chat V2 Black Pedro one of your group insisted that XL Citadels would not be allowed into hisec because people in hisec could not kill them easily, that sounds like entitlement to success to me. It is simply hypocrisy.

:) Are you trying to drag this off topic? I was primarily quoting CCP Ytterbium who did indeed confirm on Reddit that XL citadels would not be released into highsec without a way for their large HP wall to be defeated. It was not my fault that the carebear brigade decide to try to justify why 120 hours of grinding structures to even attempt to contest them in highsec was perfectly reasonable game design.

None of us are entitled to success but we are entitled to attempt to affect the game play of each other. No one gets to be safe in this game and that includes hiding behind insurmountable HP walls that provide free protection.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#218 - 2015-09-24 17:13:47 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Because it's more rewarding to mass wardec soft targets than it is to go after people with a reasonable chance, thus the whole concept of risk/reward across the mechanic is broken.
How is it “more rewarding”?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#219 - 2015-09-24 17:25:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Because it's more rewarding to mass wardec soft targets than it is to go after people with a reasonable chance, thus the whole concept of risk/reward across the mechanic is broken.
How is it “more rewarding”?
Roll I'm not doing this again. Gr8 b8 m8 8/8 and all that. Move on friend, I shall not be discussing this with you.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#220 - 2015-09-24 17:29:34 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Roll I'm not doing this again.
Your loss.
I'll keep saying that wardecs have been rebalanced then, and call you daft for laughing at a problem you can't even articulate properly.