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Allow Crystal set on Capitals Boosters
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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#41 - 2015-09-22 16:58:57 UTC
Tappits wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:



How can we swap now? like really how... do you know some one who would like to swap 2000 armor caps 400 armor supers and 150 armor titans for shield ones.....


Anneka Rice wrote:
we do have a shield slowcat fleet just like we have a shield super and titan fleet but it takes time to build. but as of now we are about 70% armor and 30% shield so we can now escalate both armor and to some extent shield at this point.


So you have around 850+ shield caps, 170+ shield supers and 60+ shield titans (going by numbers provided by PL people in this thread).
Thats 3.4 FULL fleets of capital ships + almost a full fleet of titan/SC, yet armor is what is used...
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2015-09-22 19:09:07 UTC
Shield caps have more EHP than armor caps even WITH full Slaves plugged in. Absolutely not.

Shield caps are already strictly superior to armor caps, the only reason shield caps don't get used is inertia. If you already have 500 Aeons you're pretty much stuck with armor as there's no way to effectively switch.
Anneka Rice
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#43 - 2015-09-22 20:07:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Anneka Rice
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
170+ shield supers and 60+ shield titans (going by numbers provided by PL people in this thread).
Thats 3.4 FULL fleets of capital ships + almost a full fleet of titan/SC, yet armor is what is used...


I don't think you maths very well.
Maybe you would be deemed more credible if you posted with something other than a forum alt as some of your other posts in some other topics are not as bad...
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#44 - 2015-09-22 20:22:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Haatakan Reppola
Anneka Rice wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
170+ shield supers and 60+ shield titans (going by numbers provided by PL people in this thread).
Thats 3.4 FULL fleets of capital ships + almost a full fleet of titan/SC, yet armor is what is used...


I don't think you maths very well.
Maybe you would be deemed more credible if you posted with something other than a forum alt as some of your other posts in some other topics are not as bad...


Tappits say PL have 2000 armor capitals, you say you have 70/30 armor/shield. If 2000 is 70% of your capitals then 857 is 30%
Then we have 400 armor supers, again if that is 70% of your supers 171 shield would be 30%
Last we have 150 armor titans, if that number is still 70% we are left with 64 shield as the last 30%

I have ONLY used numbers provided by PL members for this math. Most likely your own numbers are exagerated to prove a point, bit more armor capitals that the real number to show how unrealistic it is to change + higher shield % to sell the point that shield is better. All this lead to the final numbers for shield beeing way off :P

EDIT: You may be refering to my 3.4 full fleet number when the actual numbers (using numbers provided by PL members) is 3.347 fleets of 256 pilots. 235 SC+Titan is still very close to a full fleet
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#45 - 2015-09-22 20:53:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Xequecal wrote:
Shield caps have more EHP than armor caps even WITH full Slaves plugged in. Absolutely not.


No, they don't. Go ahead and show the capital that doesn't outclass its counterpart/contender when it gets a ~50% bonus to its tank.

E: Recorrection, jumped the gun. Still a dank tank this phoenix though.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2015-09-23 10:58:53 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Shield caps have more EHP than armor caps even WITH full Slaves plugged in. Absolutely not.


No, they don't. Go ahead and show the capital that doesn't outclass its counterpart/contender when it gets a ~50% bonus to its tank.

E: Recorrection, jumped the gun. Still a dank tank this phoenix though.


An A-type EANM increases armor EHP by 54.77%. An overloaded A-type invulnerability field (yes, overloading is relevant, because you can OL an A-type for about 20 minutes) increases shield EHP by 128.57%. The shield tanker has more EHP than the slaved-up armor tanker upon fitting the first resist module, let alone any additional modules.
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#47 - 2015-09-23 11:48:52 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
So you have around 850+ shield caps, 170+ shield supers and 60+ shield titans (going by numbers provided by PL people in this thread).
Thats 3.4 FULL fleets of capital ships + almost a full fleet of titan/SC, yet armor is what is used...


The numbers were just ball park random numbers. Its not a 70/30 split its a bit random, we have more shield titans than shield supers we have more shield dreads than shield carriers think we have more Aeons than we have Titans and all other supers put together shield and armor. we have more archons than any other cap prob 4 to 1 in reality. We have lots of things more than most and we prob have more shield supers in PL than any other single alliance and we don't even have an official shield super fleet.
Regardless of numbers we cannot practicably swap everything over and its not realty worth it for us at this point when we have the numbers we have anyway. they can be better but its not that much better at the numbers PL fields and no one cares about the "what if" B-R mk2 happens... Shield makes sense in the small number game as you can have 20 wyvern's vs 30 isk nyx's and win with maybe 1-2 losses max but when your dropping 50-100-200 supers on stuff and if some one can counter you TANKS are a bit irreverent when dread bombs can alpha all supers when in the max sized fleet of caps range of fighting....

But this is all off topic of shield active tanked caps
TrickyBlackSteel
Black Consuls
#48 - 2015-09-23 14:29:19 UTC
my purpose was from the first post,that i`d like too see dreads/carrier shield ,supers dont need this because they need maximum resistts and then cap chain/reps,as much resists ,but dreads and carrier in triage,you cant rep them,thats why they need their boost to be improved.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#49 - 2015-09-23 15:41:32 UTC
Tappits wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
So you have around 850+ shield caps, 170+ shield supers and 60+ shield titans (going by numbers provided by PL people in this thread).
Thats 3.4 FULL fleets of capital ships + almost a full fleet of titan/SC, yet armor is what is used...


The numbers were just ball park random numbers. Its not a 70/30 split its a bit random, we have more shield titans than shield supers we have more shield dreads than shield carriers think we have more Aeons than we have Titans and all other supers put together shield and armor. we have more archons than any other cap prob 4 to 1 in reality. We have lots of things more than most and we prob have more shield supers in PL than any other single alliance and we don't even have an official shield super fleet.
Regardless of numbers we cannot practicably swap everything over and its not realty worth it for us at this point when we have the numbers we have anyway. they can be better but its not that much better at the numbers PL fields and no one cares about the "what if" B-R mk2 happens... Shield makes sense in the small number game as you can have 20 wyvern's vs 30 isk nyx's and win with maybe 1-2 losses max but when your dropping 50-100-200 supers on stuff and if some one can counter you TANKS are a bit irreverent when dread bombs can alpha all supers when in the max sized fleet of caps range of fighting....

But this is all off topic of shield active tanked caps


Im sure you understand that i can only use the numbers provided by PL members, if those are not the correct numbers the math i do with it will ofc not be spot on :P
Can i ask why you dont have an official shield super fleet if they are better and you have the numbers for it?
About you having more shield supers than any other lliance, you proberly have more shield supers that most other alliances have supers but still "only" use armor.

Saying Shield supers are good in small scale war, when was the last time you had a 20vs20 super fight? Its 10vs1-2 and jump before 20+ dreads land on field.
Trobax
Doomheim
#50 - 2015-09-23 16:01:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Trobax
TrickyBlackSteel wrote:
my purpose was from the first post,that i`d like too see dreads/carrier shield ,supers dont need this because they need maximum resistts and then cap chain/reps,as much resists ,but dreads and carrier in triage,you cant rep them,thats why they need their boost to be improved.


Tricky, that stands true for armor carriers/dreads too, they cannot be repped as well. If you are talking about capacitor consumption being crazy on shield boosters, then allowing the "Shield compensation" skill to have an effect on capital sized modules is the solution. You will gain a 10% reduction to capacitor consumption and thus get to pulse your booster a bit more.. But as I said before, Crystals on Capital Boosters could prove a bit overwhelming. Slaves do benefit Armor Capitals, but they got the detriment of delivering rep once the cycle is completed, not at start. And Capital Reps cycle slow.

As always , the discussion got derailed on supers :D
Anneka Rice
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#51 - 2015-09-23 17:06:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Anneka Rice
Haatakan Reppola wrote:


Im sure you understand that i can only use the numbers provided by PL members, if those are not the correct numbers the math i do with it will ofc not be spot on :P
Can i ask why you dont have an official shield super fleet if they are better and you have the numbers for it?
About you having more shield supers than any other lliance, you proberly have more shield supers that most other alliances have supers but still "only" use armor.


I am just going to stop this off topic discussion here as you keep asking questions that have nothing to do with the OP and you seem to have no clue how the game works. If you would like to continue convo Tappits in game.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#52 - 2015-09-23 18:28:22 UTC
Anneka Rice wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:


Im sure you understand that i can only use the numbers provided by PL members, if those are not the correct numbers the math i do with it will ofc not be spot on :P
Can i ask why you dont have an official shield super fleet if they are better and you have the numbers for it?
About you having more shield supers than any other lliance, you proberly have more shield supers that most other alliances have supers but still "only" use armor.


I am just going to stop this off topic discussion here as you keep asking questions that have nothing to do with the OP and you seem to have no clue how the game works. If you would like to continue convo Tappits in game.


The ONLY question in that post is why you dont have official fleets when you have the numbers for it and they are by your own words better. One of those things are clearly false, either you dont have the number for shield capitals you claim or they are not as good as you claim (or you have the numbers of better ships but choose to not use it for whatever reason...)

If your going to use you alliance name to make a point, be ready to back it up.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2015-09-23 18:42:53 UTC
How bout you Open EFT and come up with your own conclusions, and stay on topic as to whether or not to allow crystals to affect capital boosters. I personally find the potential ramifications for the swaglfar, and to a lesser extent the swaghoggur, frightening.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#54 - 2015-09-23 18:58:39 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Shield caps have more EHP than armor caps even WITH full Slaves plugged in. Absolutely not.


No, they don't. Go ahead and show the capital that doesn't outclass its counterpart/contender when it gets a ~50% bonus to its tank.

E: Recorrection, jumped the gun. Still a dank tank this phoenix though.


An A-type EANM increases armor EHP by 54.77%. An overloaded A-type invulnerability field (yes, overloading is relevant, because you can OL an A-type for about 20 minutes) increases shield EHP by 128.57%. The shield tanker has more EHP than the slaved-up armor tanker upon fitting the first resist module, let alone any additional modules.

I'm not seeing what you're getting at here. I'm not using an EANM on this fit and itsoutpacing the chimera still. Same for their super cousins. Haven't played with the Titans yet though.

But, like tippits said, this is about the active tanking aspect. Which I am very willing to admit, shouldn't simply be an allowance of the bonus to work on capital modules without other tweaks or changes. For me, it's mostly about expanding the use of the implants so that it is not simply excluded from an entire class. And I honestly think the best solution would be to modify both armor and shield active tanks so that, like the buffer tanks, there is less broad of a distinction before adding variables and allow it to expand better as it goes. And with the capital rebalance coming (soon(?)), this is a great opportunity to smooth out the inconsistencies and whacky patterns as much as possible.
Anneka Rice
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#55 - 2015-09-23 19:56:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Anneka Rice
Rowells wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Shield caps have more EHP than armor caps even WITH full Slaves plugged in. Absolutely not.


No, they don't. Go ahead and show the capital that doesn't outclass its counterpart/contender when it gets a ~50% bonus to its tank.

E: Recorrection, jumped the gun. Still a dank tank this phoenix though.


An A-type EANM increases armor EHP by 54.77%. An overloaded A-type invulnerability field (yes, overloading is relevant, because you can OL an A-type for about 20 minutes) increases shield EHP by 128.57%. The shield tanker has more EHP than the slaved-up armor tanker upon fitting the first resist module, let alone any additional modules.

I'm not seeing what you're getting at here. I'm not using an EANM on this fit and itsoutpacing the chimera still. Same for their super cousins. Haven't played with the Titans yet though.

But, like tippits said, this is about the active tanking aspect. Which I am very willing to admit, shouldn't simply be an allowance of the bonus to work on capital modules without other tweaks or changes. For me, it's mostly about expanding the use of the implants so that it is not simply excluded from an entire class. And I honestly think the best solution would be to modify both armor and shield active tanks so that, like the buffer tanks, there is less broad of a distinction before adding variables and allow it to expand better as it goes. And with the capital rebalance coming (soon(?)), this is a great opportunity to smooth out the inconsistencies and whacky patterns as much as possible.


So because you cannot work out how to make Shield tanks better than armor tanks you would like CCP to make implants work to help?
Is that what you are saying? because i have no clue what any of you are going on about other than you don't seem to be able to use EFT or have no clue how to fit capital ships or both. i mean i don't get it the only thing i can think of is non of you used capitals very offten or something so you don't know how they work or something because its pretty simple stuff.
on everything from Frigs to Dreads... All active tanked armor ships use less cap then there Shield counterparts but shield use more cap but can tank more... and because shield active tanking implants don't work on caps they have ALLREADY been balanced to still be better.... Yes on some setups Armor with slaves will have more EHP than shield but the shield active tanks are still better which ever way you look at it.... (and in some cases shield EHP is also more (or very very close) to armor on a few ships
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#56 - 2015-09-23 20:20:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Anneka Rice wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Shield caps have more EHP than armor caps even WITH full Slaves plugged in. Absolutely not.


No, they don't. Go ahead and show the capital that doesn't outclass its counterpart/contender when it gets a ~50% bonus to its tank.

E: Recorrection, jumped the gun. Still a dank tank this phoenix though.


An A-type EANM increases armor EHP by 54.77%. An overloaded A-type invulnerability field (yes, overloading is relevant, because you can OL an A-type for about 20 minutes) increases shield EHP by 128.57%. The shield tanker has more EHP than the slaved-up armor tanker upon fitting the first resist module, let alone any additional modules.

I'm not seeing what you're getting at here. I'm not using an EANM on this fit and itsoutpacing the chimera still. Same for their super cousins. Haven't played with the Titans yet though.

But, like tippits said, this is about the active tanking aspect. Which I am very willing to admit, shouldn't simply be an allowance of the bonus to work on capital modules without other tweaks or changes. For me, it's mostly about expanding the use of the implants so that it is not simply excluded from an entire class. And I honestly think the best solution would be to modify both armor and shield active tanks so that, like the buffer tanks, there is less broad of a distinction before adding variables and allow it to expand better as it goes. And with the capital rebalance coming (soon(?)), this is a great opportunity to smooth out the inconsistencies and whacky patterns as much as possible.


So because you cannot work out how to make Shield tanks better than armor tanks you would like CCP to make implants work to help?
Is that what you are saying? because i have no clue what any of you are going on about other than you don't seem to be able to use EFT or have no clue how to fit capital ships or both. i mean i don't get it the only thing i can think of is non of you used capitals very offten or something so you don't know how they work or something because its pretty simple stuff.
on everything from Frigs to Dreads... All active tanked armor ships use less cap then there Shield counterparts but shield use more cap but can tank more... and because shield active tanking implants don't work on caps they have ALLREADY been balanced to still be better.... Yes on some setups Armor with slaves will have more EHP than shield but the shield active tanks are still better which ever way you look at it.... (and in some cases shield EHP is also more (or very very close) to armor on a few ships

You have somehow missed all the points I made in that post, and managed to infuse something that I never said, nor do I think I implied. Congratulations.
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#57 - 2015-09-24 07:49:03 UTC
Rowells wrote:

You have somehow missed all the points I made in that post, and managed to infuse something that I never said, nor do I think I implied. Congratulations.


Yes you would like everything to be smooth and balanced against each other so everything is the same... But People like the wacky in eve and making everything comparable to each other is boring. what is wrong with having a ship with 4x+ the tank of there armor versions (marauders) or only one ship in its class having damage bonus (nyx) or having 90% of the time useless bonuses (hel RR bonus) or something been the FOTM (everything at some point) its just with caps it takes longer for the meta to change and swap and filter down to the rest of eve because most people in eve don't fly caps and those that do most do a pos kill op every month and that's it.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2015-09-24 11:10:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Rowells wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Shield caps have more EHP than armor caps even WITH full Slaves plugged in. Absolutely not.


No, they don't. Go ahead and show the capital that doesn't outclass its counterpart/contender when it gets a ~50% bonus to its tank.

E: Recorrection, jumped the gun. Still a dank tank this phoenix though.


An A-type EANM increases armor EHP by 54.77%. An overloaded A-type invulnerability field (yes, overloading is relevant, because you can OL an A-type for about 20 minutes) increases shield EHP by 128.57%. The shield tanker has more EHP than the slaved-up armor tanker upon fitting the first resist module, let alone any additional modules.

I'm not seeing what you're getting at here. I'm not using an EANM on this fit and itsoutpacing the chimera still. Same for their super cousins. Haven't played with the Titans yet though.

But, like tippits said, this is about the active tanking aspect. Which I am very willing to admit, shouldn't simply be an allowance of the bonus to work on capital modules without other tweaks or changes. For me, it's mostly about expanding the use of the implants so that it is not simply excluded from an entire class. And I honestly think the best solution would be to modify both armor and shield active tanks so that, like the buffer tanks, there is less broad of a distinction before adding variables and allow it to expand better as it goes. And with the capital rebalance coming (soon(?)), this is a great opportunity to smooth out the inconsistencies and whacky patterns as much as possible.


The point is that slaves give a little over 50% armor EHP. As soon as you fit a SINGLE deadspace hardener to your shield capital, you already have more EHP than the armor cap will ever get even if they fit the same number of resist mods. The difference in resists also more than makes up for the efficiency difference between capital shield boosters and armor reps, resulting in the shield tanker beating the armor tanker in both HP/second AND HP/cap.

Shield caps need a nerf, not a buff via Crystals. They are already strictly superior to armor caps in basically every way, the only reason armor caps are still used is because you can't mix doctrines and if you already have 500 Aeons you're kind of stuck.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#59 - 2015-09-24 11:20:00 UTC
I'd be okay if the Crystal set had a separate effect for capital modules. Like say -90% cap use and -50% cycle time.

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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#60 - 2015-09-24 13:55:51 UTC
Xequecal wrote:

Shield caps need a nerf, not a buff via Crystals. They are already strictly superior to armor caps in basically every way, the only reason armor caps are still used is because you can't mix doctrines and if you already have 500 Aeons you're kind of stuck.


As long as Armor is the goto for every major alliance ther eis no need to nerf shield. If we ever get to the point where shield capitals are the goto for anyone that is anyone THEN we can talk about nerfing!