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War dec'ing woes
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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#41 - 2012-01-02 02:40:50 UTC
Pinaculus wrote:


The Above is absolutely true. An addition:

Blackbird Fleets aren't fun to fight. Fight back and make it boring/a pain to fight you, and you won't get many incoming wardecs.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
nooblete
Doomheim
#42 - 2012-01-02 14:00:18 UTC
Pinaculus wrote:

If these guys have paid money to fight you, then why don't you just blob the heck out of them. If they refuse to engage, go fleet-run a mission or something. Stay together. Primary stuff. Sure, you'll probably get killed a lot. But you might also learn a thing or two about how to defend yourself. And, just maybe, you could have fun.

This is the trouble though, we're never on at the same time.
Death Toll007
Perkone
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-01-02 15:51:59 UTC
OP: Thank you for your tears.

I am sustained and may continue playing for the next month or until I get more tears.

-DT
nooblete
Doomheim
#44 - 2012-01-02 18:08:31 UTC
Death Toll007 wrote:
OP: Thank you for your tears.

I am sustained and may continue playing for the next month or until I get more tears.

-DT

Excellent, I'm glad I could be of service!
GhostDragoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2012-01-02 18:28:22 UTC
nooblete wrote:
As you so adamantly state we have absolute choice in what we do. That is incorrect. At no point did I agree to the declaration of war. I forefeit my privilege of flying round high sec in a freighter on my own and unguarded because of a choice another player has made. Shouldn't that other player be put to some disadvantage due to a decision I make? Especially after making a change to the game for myself without any consent from myself?


He has.. It's called the dec fee. he had to give up iskies for the right to shoot at you. Also, flying around hisec without getting shot is not a privilege. It's a lucky streak. There is no safe space. You could also surrender the war and the fight is over 24 hrs after that.

So.... instead of sitting and playing "woe is me" please do some darn research on game mechanics before gracing us with your next bout of verbal diarrhea.

~Ghost
Arctur Vallfar
Knights Adamant
#46 - 2012-01-02 19:10:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Arctur Vallfar
nooblete wrote:
Pinaculus wrote:

If these guys have paid money to fight you, then why don't you just blob the heck out of them. If they refuse to engage, go fleet-run a mission or something. Stay together. Primary stuff. Sure, you'll probably get killed a lot. But you might also learn a thing or two about how to defend yourself. And, just maybe, you could have fun.

This is the trouble though, we're never on at the same time.



Then surely you could hire a competent group of creative individuals for such a task.

What I'm hearing is that your corporation bit off much more than it could chew. In my opinion, you deserve to be cornered and making such outlandish propositions. Even if you are not responsible in any way for this war, it makes perfect sense to find another corporation that has some sense. If your corp were smarter, you'd simply hire a group of players to do your dirty work for you. Or take the defeat and chalk this up as a life lesson. Perhaps until you forget all about it and it happens all over again.
nooblete
Doomheim
#47 - 2012-01-02 21:42:34 UTC  |  Edited by: nooblete
GhostDragoon wrote:
nooblete wrote:
As you so adamantly state we have absolute choice in what we do. That is incorrect. At no point did I agree to the declaration of war. I forefeit my privilege of flying round high sec in a freighter on my own and unguarded because of a choice another player has made. Shouldn't that other player be put to some disadvantage due to a decision I make? Especially after making a change to the game for myself without any consent from myself?


He has.. It's called the dec fee. he had to give up iskies for the right to shoot at you. Also, flying around hisec without getting shot is not a privilege. It's a lucky streak. There is no safe space. You could also surrender the war and the fight is over 24 hrs after that.

So.... instead of sitting and playing "woe is me" please do some darn research on game mechanics before gracing us with your next bout of verbal diarrhea.

~Ghost
As before, the dec fee is peanuts. Not really an amount I'd consider proportionate to the amount of damage it can cause.

I don't remember seeing a surrender button, perhaps you could direct me, I am a noob after all I must have missed it. Like "Surrender POS to retract war dec" I guess that makes sense, freeing up a spot in high sec for another station. Or do you only get the surrender button if you own a POS? Cos we don't own a POS so there's no real estate to be gained from war dec'ing us.

So.... this thread has turned up a couple of snippets I didn't know about, and I think the easiest thing to do is just going to be to dissolve the corp, I only set it up so I can share stuff between my two characters without having to be in the same station at the same time.

Arctur Vallfar wrote:

What I'm hearing is that your corporation bit off much more than it could chew.

I simply do not understand.
Squidgey
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-01-02 23:56:17 UTC
nooblete wrote:


So how is his choice not interfering with me? Why can't I interfere with him a little?
And we haven't disbanded yet, having the corp makes things convenient, nice private chat channel, openly share out gear between us, you know, that sort of thing.

But as we have no POS there is nothing for a corp to gain from a war with us.
Meh, I wouldn't even mind not having the corp, providing I could create some sort of shared hanagr.

Because what is stopping you from podding him repeatedly while he is AFK?

Do you have any idea what that will do to his SP?

Do you have any idea about common sense? The station is SUPPOSED to be safe. He cant do anything to you while he is docked, so what makes you think you deserve to force him out of a place where he can't touch you?


Here is an idea, let OP have this. But make it cost 10 billion isk to do so. And 50% of that goes to the player being forced out.



See how I can come up with ridiculous things?
Salcon Cliff
Zephyr Corp
#49 - 2012-01-03 16:53:46 UTC
Just for grins, get a mining fleet together that includes 3 or 4 of these:
[Blackbird, Mining BB]
Signal Distortion Amplifier I
Expanded Cargohold II

ECM - Spatial Destabilizer I
ECM - Phase Inverter I
ECM - Ion Field Projector I
ECM - White Noise Generator I
Stasis Webifier I
Warp Disruptor I

Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
[empty high slot]


It is a pretty pointless fit for mining (only mines 250-300m3 per cycle, compared to a retriever at 650-700m3 or so), but does give you something to do if the WTs do not arrive. Have the more skilled members in their hulks or whatnot. Use a few with scrams instead or disruptors. The skill requirements are piddly and will still result in a fairly effective ECM ship when used in a fleet together. If you want, use some higher meta stuff and add a missile launcher, although you are really counting on someone else to kill the WT(s).

You hear all the time from griefers/gankers about loving carebear tears.....and I have to agree, tears are fun, especially from the would be ganker. You should have heard the whinning and crying we got from a Loki pilot (back when T3 was new) who got perma-jammed by a similar Blackbird and then killed by several ships that cost less than the mods on his ship. He seemed to think it was being wussy or something. I should go back and see if I can find his chat log :).

Oh, on that topic, never, ever communicate in any way with a WT or their corp. Stone cold silence. Do not answer mails, chat requests, etc. Do not even block them...make him wonder if you even know he exists. They are looking for entertainment, do not give it to them.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#50 - 2012-01-03 23:40:40 UTC
nooblete wrote:

Arctur Vallfar wrote:

What I'm hearing is that your corporation bit off much more than it could chew.

I simply do not understand.


It's an American idiom for getting into a situation you are unable to handle.

You're in a player corp. With that comes organizational and tax advantages. It also comes with the ability to be wardecced.

Also, I'm ok with your idea if it doesn't work outside Hisec, and the aggressors can use it too. Pirate

Guess who'd gonna learn to logoff before going AFK faster. The Wardec people or the Wardec victims? Blink

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
nooblete
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-01-04 13:34:25 UTC  |  Edited by: nooblete
RubyPorto wrote:

You're in a player corp. With that comes organizational and tax advantages. It also comes with the ability to be wardecced.

Also, I'm ok with your idea if it doesn't work outside Hisec, and the aggressors can use it too. Pirate

Guess who'd gonna learn to logoff before going AFK faster. The Wardec people or the Wardec victims? Blink

That's pretty much my point, I'd know when he's online because he wouldn't stay signed in all the time.
Arctur Vallfar wrote:

What I'm hearing is that your corporation bit off much more than it could chew.

I was more getting at the fact I hadn't done any biting.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#52 - 2012-01-04 13:51:22 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
nooblete wrote:

That's pretty much my point, I'd know when he's online because he wouldn't stay signed in all the time.


1. This would just bring AFK Cloakers to Hisec. (If you don't know what that is, he'd sit AFK in a Cloaked ship somewhere in space)

2. He'd be able to pop you out of station any time he wanted. Do you really want to log Every time you need to take a **** or grab a drink of water? Seems a little masochistic to me.


nooblete wrote:
Arctur Vallfar wrote:

What I'm hearing is that your corporation bit off much more than it could chew.

I was more getting at the fact I hadn't done any biting.


As I said before, when you formed/joined a Player run corp, you said to the world: "I am no longer a Newbie needing protection, Come At Me Bro!"

Maybe you formed it to just make sharing stuff between alts easier. That's not what the mechanic was put in place to facilitate, so why are you surprised it went pear shaped?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#53 - 2012-01-04 19:57:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
IMO, wardecs are currently broken.

Non-consentual PvP is an important part of EvE, and hisec wardecs are a good idea (even if the current implementation is fail).

The idea to kick a player out of station isn't all that fail.... people can easily log off when in station to stay safe. It would definitely put a disadvantage onto the deccing corp, which is NOT a bad thing. However, a game mechanic that encourages people to log off is a bad idea in general.

CCP's newest theme is war, so I expect they will alter wardec mechanics significantly over the next year. Currently, with corp hopping, and the cheap price of wardecs, the mechanic is broken.

I would think putting out general guidelines on what works, and what fails in the current wardec scheme would be very helpful to CCP.

Working as intended:
Allowing an aggressor corp to wardec any Player corp they want.
The only "safety" from wardecs comes from NPC corps.
Mutual wardecs: RvB is an excellent example of how wardecs work!

Fails:
Corp hopping: The ease at which corps can evade wardecs by jumping to another corp.
Corp hopping: The ease at which aggressors can hop corps to weekend gank.
Price: The price of wardecs is laughably low. There is essentially no cost to wardecs.

Potential (not necessarily good) ideas:

Provide a disadvantage to the aggressing corp. Currently, cost is NOT a disadvantage.
-- Concord can be bought to boot people out of stations in which their corp doesn't hold an office? (Meh)
-- Players can NOT join an aggressing corp during one-sided wardecs? (+1)
-- Additional concord taxes on all rewards and market transactions? (meh)
-- War deccer's get standing penalties to factions based on the wardeccee's standings (i.e., dec a few +10 Amarr mission running corps, and your corp suddenly has -10 faction standings to Amarr, hence amarr police attack in amarr space) (+1, but hard to balance)

Regional/factional Wardecs? Each wardec is limited to a faction's space (Caldari, Amarr, etc)? (+/-)

Corp Life Risk vs Reward:
-- Increase the benefits of being in a player corp vs NPC, and don't allow players to so quickly evade wardecs.
-- Forcing players into unwanted wars needs to be balanced with limits on war duration.
Aldous Borrn
League of Gentleman Cartographers
#54 - 2012-01-06 08:14:52 UTC
Gizznit makes some good suggestions.

Particulary:
Not being able to join aggressing corps
Regional conditions(standing hits, deccing by region - coupled with probably higher cost)

What would be interesting to see, as well, might be an actual "mercenary" contract mechanic. In the contracts page. Mercenary creates a contract for X isk and could get kill rights against a] the enemy corp or b] a specific member of that corp, both for the duration of that war. The latter being something of an enhanced bounty system.

It might make high-sec grief deccers think twice before targetting that squishy carebear corp, at least.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#55 - 2012-01-06 18:11:52 UTC
there is something wrong with some highsec war decs but, theres really no easy fix.

Let the miners mine unmolested until the end of time and bots will be botting other bots while efficiency bots are botted by other bots, Keep things as they are and trolls will troll people into canceling their accounts due to loss of interest in the game.
Stop the trolls dead in their tracks and like neuter them from attacking high-sec noobs and they will start to cancel their subs due to loss of interest in the game.

there is really no simple fix, its complicated, it sucks.
shal ri
Short Bus Window Licker
#56 - 2012-01-09 20:23:59 UTC
the war dec system is fine. the thing that has to change is u the player. this is eve. this is not WOW. this in not some xbox single player adventure game. this is an MMO where ppl shoot other ppl. u the carebear are not goin to be safe. high sec is not meant to be safe. miners and noobs that want to be safe should play a different game where i cant find them and kill them. those that dec ppl simply because they want easy kills, suck at pvp. u can kill them easy if u think like a human being.

if u cant think then ur ******** and should play WOW since u have no need to think in that game wat so ever. those of u that complain cuz u got dec'ed are babies. grow the **** up, grab ur balls out of the safety deposit box u put them in and deal with it. dont want to fight? then dont undock. simple solution to a simple problem.
OP u just came up with the most ******** suggestion ever. any 1 with **** loads of isk can locate u and kick u from the station as many times as they want. that means if u are in ur fancy mish ship and u want to go take a ****, said person can kick u and kill u followed by pod.
if u dont see the issue with that, i want u to be my first dec once this new system goes though to see how well it works out for u.

******** ppl coming up with ******** solutions. wats next? a screen showing if theres a gate camp on a low sec gate?
Aldous Borrn
League of Gentleman Cartographers
#57 - 2012-01-10 03:23:49 UTC
The wardeccing system is broken. The OP's suggestion isn't the answer, but he's right in that it's not working as intended. Despite what some might imply, Empire isn't a barren wasteland of tumbleweeds and bots. Lots of people play there...and every time a carebear corp gets griefdecced by hotshot pvpers people leave. Often not to come back.

So, yes, ultimately this will be dealt with. There's only so many rookie players Eve can lose to the longterm players before they start to feel the loss of revenue.
nooblete
Doomheim
#58 - 2012-01-10 19:34:39 UTC  |  Edited by: nooblete
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
IMO, wardecs are currently broken.

Non-consentual PvP is an important part of EvE, and hisec wardecs are a good idea (even if the current implementation is fail).

The idea to kick a player out of station isn't all that fail.... people can easily log off when in station to stay safe. It would definitely put a disadvantage onto the deccing corp, which is NOT a bad thing. However, a game mechanic that encourages people to log off is a bad idea in general.

CCP's newest theme is war, so I expect they will alter wardec mechanics significantly over the next year. Currently, with corp hopping, and the cheap price of wardecs, the mechanic is broken.

I would think putting out general guidelines on what works, and what fails in the current wardec scheme would be very helpful to CCP.

Working as intended:
Allowing an aggressor corp to wardec any Player corp they want.
The only "safety" from wardecs comes from NPC corps.
Mutual wardecs: RvB is an excellent example of how wardecs work!

Fails:
Corp hopping: The ease at which corps can evade wardecs by jumping to another corp.
Corp hopping: The ease at which aggressors can hop corps to weekend gank.
Price: The price of wardecs is laughably low. There is essentially no cost to wardecs.

Potential (not necessarily good) ideas:

Provide a disadvantage to the aggressing corp. Currently, cost is NOT a disadvantage.
-- Concord can be bought to boot people out of stations in which their corp doesn't hold an office? (Meh)
-- Players can NOT join an aggressing corp during one-sided wardecs? (+1)
-- Additional concord taxes on all rewards and market transactions? (meh)
-- War deccer's get standing penalties to factions based on the wardeccee's standings (i.e., dec a few +10 Amarr mission running corps, and your corp suddenly has -10 faction standings to Amarr, hence amarr police attack in amarr space) (+1, but hard to balance)

Regional/factional Wardecs? Each wardec is limited to a faction's space (Caldari, Amarr, etc)? (+/-)

Corp Life Risk vs Reward:
-- Increase the benefits of being in a player corp vs NPC, and don't allow players to so quickly evade wardecs.
-- Forcing players into unwanted wars needs to be balanced with limits on war duration.

I really like the standings idea. A lot of work to get there so a reward of being genuinely costly to dec (in that factions space) doesn't seem unfitting.

shal ri wrote:
the war dec system is fine. the thing that has to change is u the player. this is eve. this is not WOW. this in not some xbox single player adventure game. this is an MMO where ppl shoot other ppl. u the carebear are not goin to be safe. high sec is not meant to be safe. miners and noobs that want to be safe should play a different game where i cant find them and kill them. those that dec ppl simply because they want easy kills, suck at pvp. u can kill them easy if u think like a human being.

if u cant think then ur ******** and should play WOW since u have no need to think in that game wat so ever. those of u that complain cuz u got dec'ed are babies. grow the **** up, grab ur balls out of the safety deposit box u put them in and deal with it. dont want to fight? then dont undock. simple solution to a simple problem.
OP u just came up with the most ******** suggestion ever. any 1 with **** loads of isk can locate u and kick u from the station as many times as they want. that means if u are in ur fancy mish ship and u want to go take a ****, said person can kick u and kill u followed by pod.
if u dont see the issue with that, i want u to be my first dec once this new system goes though to see how well it works out for u.

******** ppl coming up with ******** solutions. wats next? a screen showing if theres a gate camp on a low sec gate?

No illiterate children in my thread please.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#59 - 2012-01-10 20:03:59 UTC
nooblete wrote:

I really like the standings idea. A lot of work to get there so a reward of being genuinely costly to dec (in that factions space) doesn't seem unfitting.


Wardecs aren't supposed to be costly. The Dec fee has always been a token amount, and it used to be the same token amount no matter how many outgoing decs were going on.

Why would the factions care about police (and Yulai convention) approved combat happening in their space, anyway?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
nooblete
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-01-10 21:19:29 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
nooblete wrote:

I really like the standings idea. A lot of work to get there so a reward of being genuinely costly to dec (in that factions space) doesn't seem unfitting.


Wardecs aren't supposed to be costly. The Dec fee has always been a token amount, and it used to be the same token amount no matter how many outgoing decs were going on.

Why would the factions care about police (and Yulai convention) approved combat happening in their space, anyway?

Sorry?