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Make PI into a pay to win mobile game.
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Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#21 - 2015-09-18 17:00:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Rift
Geligdio Khan wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Mobile? So the App works on WP/W10M, iOS and Android, and maybe even FFOS, Ubuntu Mobile and Blackberry? Because, if it only works on one or 2, it excludes a lot of players from being able to access the app. That in itself is already a major reason for a no. Second reason for a no is that the development for several platforms would require a lot of dev resources, which would consume most of the meager income they get from this pay to win. (sidenote: I am still waiting on CCP to release numbers on the income from the NES to see whether the dev time investment is really worth the additional revenue. CCP constantly complains about "how projects that would actually make the game better are expensive in terms of dev resources", but they waste these resources on the NES)

Furthermore, you do want characters pop up out of no where, already able to undertake PI and train them further to become better at PI. Your comparison with people setting up an account and buying a character in the Bazaar is in no way comparable to that, because these Bazaar characters were trained up by players before and required subscription money to be paid for that training time, as well as 2 Plex as payment for the transfer. You just completely remove that and replace it with an even bigger advantage for people with deep RL wallets who can buy dozens of characters and potentially even use several mobile devices to at once. Good job. Or how do you train them? Get the chars for money out of no-where and then pay a subscription in addition to that app purchase to train them further?

The way you set this up moreover completely removes the variability of PI directly in the game itself. And you (apparently) even want to get rid of the transport aspect (ie. risk) by magically(?) transporting the PI goods from one planet to the next and from stations systems away to the next(?) and sell them from the Poco to other players in stations or the same poco without you having to transport a thing.

You also mention that PI is a huge click fest and thus cumbersome. Do you really believe that the rudimentary and inadequate controls on a mobile device are in any way better than a mouse and keyboard at this? With all the clunky menus, restricted UI and menu paths and organization, the limited space on a phone to display information and so on? I call this delusional.

All in all: Mobile and Pay2Win are crap.

What CCP needs to do -- instead of this garbage P2W that you want and other publishers and developers seemingly flirt with a lot -- is provide reasons to players to want to get an EVE account, are panting to get an EVE account. All these cheap tricks like NES, P2W apps or arenas are not what this feeling creates. Intriguing mechanics, deeper and meaningful events in the game in your space (I have posted a couple of examples in the past) and in general things for people to do are the only way to achieve that.



Thanks for you nice feedback.

1. This PI system would also be available from inside the EVE client so no one who has access now would be excluded. Moreover it's intended to be profit making, it is a failure if it doesn't recoup the money spent on it. The reason mobile games exist is because they are profitable, if they weren't, they wouldn't exist.

2. The chars in the mobile game would not be the same as EVE characters. They would be entirely separate. Currently in EVE you can use RL cash to produce an arbitrarily large amount of PI, you can just start 100 accounts and train 100 characters for a week and then start 500 planets. That's the point, it's already pay to win.

3. All PI products would be in the POCO of the planet. They would not move magically from there to a station. You could make buy and sell orders from the POCO though.

4. I agree phones having limited screen real estate is a difficulty. However with a greatly stripped down interface this could be made much simpler. For example you would select, "Region, Constellation, System, Planet xxx, produce oxygen, 24 hours." That's really not so bad I think. Having a layout for your setup is currently worth basically nothing, it is a huge amount of clicks for no reason. Under this proposed system you would just see a list of all the buildings you have running.

5. I don't think this is cheap tricks, I think this could actually be a nice game. I would play it and it sounds like fun. The galaxy is big. So if one person pays to have ten planets on lockdown, who cares? Go to another part of the galaxy and operate there. You can already pay RL money to produce as much PI as you like, I don't see the problem with that.




the poco tax comes in where? Also only using one planet really limits what can be made in terms of PI.

also stop confusing pay to win and pay to play.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-09-18 18:01:30 UTC
There is some pay to win with PI, but in all honesty there's a fairly significant amount of work involved in making a PI account bring in enough to pay for its subscription. Assuming you already have 3 PI characters on the account, you have to currently earn about 340 mil per month per character just to break even. On my PI system in lowsec, I run week-long cycles and make a total yield from all six planets of nearly 100 mil total haul, so with three characters doing like my main I could pay my subscription on just PI. That wouldn't be a whole month of work, but it's in lowsec so there's a danger of hauling it back especially on a regular basis. And even that is a significant bit of work and for very little profit margin.

Some people make a very large profit margin running multiple PI accounts, but they spend many hours every week managing them, restarting their cycles, rearranging their extractor heads, hauling the goods, taking and mitigating risks, etc. It's not nearly as pay-to-win as a Zynga game, or Candy Crush Saga, or other microtransaction-heavy games.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2015-09-18 19:08:15 UTC
Geligdio Khan wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
PI resources directly impact other prices in the economy. The impact of the pay to win scenario would reach much further than just PI.



Well it's possible. If a lot more PI products were produced the price might fall. That's the main effect.

The whole point of pay to win is CCP gets a whole new income stream to pay for development. Who here will say that someone paying to be the king of PI is going to be a problem to anyone?

I'm sure a lot of people saw "pay to win" in the title and immediately decided against the idea without reading it. However these people probably wouldn't read it anyway and so there opinion doesn't really matter.


Actually, the exact opposite might happen if you have to pay to play the PI game.

Basic tenet of economics: Increase of the cost of something you get less of it.

So, no.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Geligdio Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-09-18 20:35:27 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:


...




the poco tax comes in where? Also only using one planet really limits what can be made in terms of PI.

also stop confusing pay to win and pay to play.


You can tax buy and sell orders in your poco and tax goods leaving if you like. You can use lots of planets if you like, there is no problem with that.

I don't think I am confusing pay to win and pay to play. The game would be free to play but if you pay money you can get a lot stronger. That's pay to win.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:


There is some pay to win with PI, but in all honesty there's a fairly significant amount of work involved in making a PI account bring in enough to pay for its subscription. Assuming you already have 3 PI characters on the account, you have to currently earn about 340 mil per month per character just to break even. On my PI system in lowsec, I run week-long cycles and make a total yield from all six planets of nearly 100 mil total haul, so with three characters doing like my main I could pay my subscription on just PI. That wouldn't be a whole month of work, but it's in lowsec so there's a danger of hauling it back especially on a regular basis. And even that is a significant bit of work and for very little profit margin.

Some people make a very large profit margin running multiple PI accounts, but they spend many hours every week managing them, restarting their cycles, rearranging their extractor heads, hauling the goods, taking and mitigating risks, etc. It's not nearly as pay-to-win as a Zynga game, or Candy Crush Saga, or other microtransaction-heavy games.



The point is if you paid for the subs with money (an unusual idea I know) you could have a lot of accounts running, as many as you like. If you just want isk then you can buy isk right now (just buy a plex and sell it). There is really no problem if a person pays a lot of real money and gets a lot of PI out of it. Nor if they destroy a lot of other peoples PI setups.

Teckos Pech wrote:

Actually, the exact opposite might happen if you have to pay to play the PI game.

Basic tenet of economics: Increase of the cost of something you get less of it.

So, no.


EVE is pay to play already. This game would be free to play so more people could play it and produce more.


Thanks
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#25 - 2015-09-18 20:44:41 UTC
Geligdio Khan wrote:



EVE is pay to play already. This game would be free to play so more people could play it and produce more.





does that mean its free to play for everyone or just with a current eve sub?
Aven Valkyr
Over Reaction
Ligma Grindset
#26 - 2015-09-19 00:03:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Aven Valkyr
Dude my idea of introducing an EVE app simply just to log in and chat with your crew and read eve mails was shot down in a fireball of hate. And the reason for the argument was valid. Even the *simplest* of app that allows access in any way shape or form to the game would require an immense amount of dev time and overhead. I can agree that the dev time and the insane amount of headaches introduced is a good enough reason to not bother with a mobile app.

What you are proposing is.. lol.. game breaking. LOL. once again, LOL. Good luck with this idea
Zerinia
Lom Corporation
#27 - 2015-09-19 05:02:43 UTC
My main is in NEE. About half the collateral of all the contracts I do is PI or PI-related. Don't wreck my way of life. Also, I would quit EvE right now if it went p2w.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2015-09-19 06:23:54 UTC
Geligdio Khan wrote:

Teckos Pech wrote:

Actually, the exact opposite might happen if you have to pay to play the PI game.

Basic tenet of economics: Increase of the cost of something you get less of it.

So, no.


EVE is pay to play already. This game would be free to play so more people could play it and produce more.




Yeah, so? Paying more to get even more production is a higher price so it will result in less output.

I already pay RL money for my accounts. If I have to pay an additional $5/month just to keep my current PI output, **** that. I might even decide **** the game, **** CCP, and I'll **** off for another game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Geligdio Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2015-09-19 15:41:50 UTC
Aven Valkyr wrote:
Dude my idea of introducing an EVE app simply just to log in and chat with your crew and read eve mails was shot down in a fireball of hate. And the reason for the argument was valid. Even the *simplest* of app that allows access in any way shape or form to the game would require an immense amount of dev time and overhead. I can agree that the dev time and the insane amount of headaches introduced is a good enough reason to not bother with a mobile app.

What you are proposing is.. lol.. game breaking. LOL. once again, LOL. Good luck with this idea


Well this is meant to be profit making which covers the cost of making the app.

Thanks
Siobhan MacLeary
Doomheim
#30 - 2015-09-20 08:42:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Siobhan MacLeary
Pay to Win? In my EVE?

GET THE HELL OUT.

No, never, not in a million years. The playerbase rioted over $70 monocles in 2011 and has historically been virulently against P2W for years.

I'm all for making PI more fun and attractive to players, but a transparent cash-grab P2W mobile game is NOT the way to do it. If CCP followed the crowd, we'd be playing a game far more like your typical low-rent theme-park MMO.

0/10. You lose, sir. You get nothing. This is an objectively bad idea.

“Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.” - CCP Soundwave
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#31 - 2015-09-20 09:03:49 UTC
Samillian wrote:
Honestly I have no intention of paying more than my current subs for the dubious privilege of engaging and staying competitive in an activity I can only bring myself to partake of because it significantly reduces my T2 production costs.

On top of that Pay2Win is anathema to many players in any form so I think you'll find more players who like myself that say yes, someone paying to be the king of PI is a problem, especially when you consider the effect that may have on the market.

If my costs go up expect to pay more, I'm not a charity and neither is anyone else I know in production.

Not supported.



Your not a charity?

I am certain that you would take anything and all of that anything that someone wanted to give to you for free but would never give anything away for free.

That is in fact a 50/50 Charity.

Pwnd.
Geligdio Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-09-20 15:10:23 UTC
Zerinia wrote:
My main is in NEE. About half the collateral of all the contracts I do is PI or PI-related. Don't wreck my way of life. Also, I would quit EvE right now if it went p2w.


I'm not at all suggesting that EVE should become pay to win. It kind of already is though as you can pay for massive advantages like buying a high level character and as many powerful ships as you like, while the rest of us have to grind it out.

Moreover if you like PI now you could still use it then. It would be much the same from the EVE client.

Thanks
Geligdio Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-09-21 19:17:43 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:

Teckos Pech wrote:

Actually, the exact opposite might happen if you have to pay to play the PI game.

Basic tenet of economics: Increase of the cost of something you get less of it.

So, no.


EVE is pay to play already. This game would be free to play so more people could play it and produce more.




Yeah, so? Paying more to get even more production is a higher price so it will result in less output.

I already pay RL money for my accounts. If I have to pay an additional $5/month just to keep my current PI output, **** that. I might even decide **** the game, **** CCP, and I'll **** off for another game.


It's all about balance, I don't think you would have to pay a lot more to do the same thing.

Moreover there is a problem with EVE that there are so many vested interests it's hard to change anything,

Thanks
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#34 - 2015-09-21 20:44:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Samillian
DrysonBennington wrote:
Samillian wrote:
Honestly I have no intention of paying more than my current subs for the dubious privilege of engaging and staying competitive in an activity I can only bring myself to partake of because it significantly reduces my T2 production costs.

On top of that Pay2Win is anathema to many players in any form so I think you'll find more players who like myself that say yes, someone paying to be the king of PI is a problem, especially when you consider the effect that may have on the market.

If my costs go up expect to pay more, I'm not a charity and neither is anyone else I know in production.

Not supported.



Your not a charity?

I am certain that you would take anything and all of that anything that someone wanted to give to you for free but would never give anything away for free.

That is in fact a 50/50 Charity.

Pwnd.


No that would be taking charity not being a charity.

Language is hard, well done you for trying.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#35 - 2015-09-21 21:24:01 UTC
Being able to do PI as it is now from a mobile device = that would be really nice.

Anything pay to win? Oh hell no. Get out. Terribad idea.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2015-09-21 21:26:47 UTC
Geligdio Khan wrote:
Zerinia wrote:
My main is in NEE. About half the collateral of all the contracts I do is PI or PI-related. Don't wreck my way of life. Also, I would quit EvE right now if it went p2w.


I'm not at all suggesting that EVE should become pay to win. It kind of already is though as you can pay for massive advantages like buying a high level character and as many powerful ships as you like, while the rest of us have to grind it out.

Moreover if you like PI now you could still use it then. It would be much the same from the EVE client.


You could still use PI but it would be drastically devalued thus devalueing the time, effort and investment existing players have put into PI. Not a good idea...
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#37 - 2015-09-21 22:26:30 UTC
You kinda lost me at "pay to.." what?

Nooooeeeees.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
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