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Dev blog: Citadels, sieges and you v2

First post
Author
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#301 - 2015-09-21 09:15:48 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Masao Kurata wrote:

No it's not.

BWAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Yea..... I'm sorry. You are just being unrealistic here expecting to be able to solo kill an XL Citadel in an hour. We are talking the largest heaviest shielded Battle Fortress that players will be able to make.
Just because you want to be able to troll anyone who builds one solo.... doesn't make it reasonable.
Also buying minerals off the market does not remove the man hours spent mining, and miners don't afk like people claim they do, and are just as important players as everyone else.


But Nevyn...remember that Luke Skywalker managed it in a snub fighter....
Black Pedro
Mine.
#302 - 2015-09-21 09:20:16 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

In terms of your WH comment you are mixing up the number of people who can live there as against the numbers that can come in, I have seen WH fleets of 20+ Dreads evicting people.

Dreads cannot go into a C2. Battleships cannot even go into a C1. The only viable way to attack an XL in the time frame suggested by the devblog is to bring hundreds of players flying smaller ships into the hole. And hundreds of members is exactly what the typical C1 or C2 wormhole corporation does not have.

It will never happen.

As to the rest of your post, CCP will not balance these new structure around what might happen in the future. Currently, no highsec entity can field enough players to contest the XL structures in the targeted time frame indicated by the devblog. Therefore, it would be incredible silly to release them like this, and be directly contrary to their design goal of equaling the playing field between groups of different sizes. I am afraid you will not get them in highsec or low-class wormholes unless there is some counter to their massive HP provided so they can be contested by the smaller groups that live there.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#303 - 2015-09-21 09:34:32 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Black Pedro wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

In terms of your WH comment you are mixing up the number of people who can live there as against the numbers that can come in, I have seen WH fleets of 20+ Dreads evicting people.

Dreads cannot go into a C2. Battleships cannot even go into a C1. The only viable way to attack an XL in the time frame suggested by the devblog is to bring hundreds of players flying smaller ships into the hole. And hundreds of members is exactly what the typical C1 or C2 wormhole corporation does not have.

It will never happen.

As to the rest of your post, CCP will not balance these new structure around what might happen in the future. Currently, no highsec entity can field enough players to contest the XL structures in the targeted time frame indicated by the devblog. Therefore, it would be incredible silly to release them like this, and be directly contrary to their design goal of equaling the playing field between groups of different sizes. I am afraid you will not get them in highsec or low-class wormholes unless there is some counter to their massive HP provided so they can be contested by the smaller groups that live there.


dude, that "target time frame" indicated it's not obligatory, can you comprehend that? it's not like you have to reinforce it in max 30' it's the other way around, you can reinforce it in min 30'
as about no large high sec entitys, i've seen full fleets (250 members) fo high sec players on several occasions, but yea, keep living in your own bubble

soo, what you want is this: every time you and your 10 man corp is bored, you should be able to go and blow up one xl citadel, and ofc, it should not take longer than 30'. right?
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#304 - 2015-09-21 09:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Black Pedro wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

In terms of your WH comment you are mixing up the number of people who can live there as against the numbers that can come in, I have seen WH fleets of 20+ Dreads evicting people.

Dreads cannot go into a C2. Battleships cannot even go into a C1. The only viable way to attack an XL in the time frame suggested by the devblog is to bring hundreds of players flying smaller ships into the hole. And hundreds of members is exactly what the typical C1 or C2 wormhole corporation does not have.

It will never happen.

As to the rest of your post, CCP will not balance these new structure around what might happen in the future. Currently, no highsec entity can field enough players to contest the XL structures in the targeted time frame indicated by the devblog. Therefore, it would be incredible silly to release them like this, and be directly contrary to their design goal of equaling the playing field between groups of different sizes. I am afraid you will not get them in highsec or low-class wormholes unless there is some counter to their massive HP provided so they can be contested by the smaller groups that live there.


People in this game have a load of ISK, its a bit out of balance, I should have said C3 when I said evictions, but you have to step back and think of the value proposition of putting an XL in a C1, apart from the logistic nightmare of moving the material in and of course building the ship required to launch it, yes it could be done and yes it would be difficult to take, but it is still a C1 or a C2. So CCP has to base their design on someone doing something which is really more ISK then sense.

WH alliances work with others to evict people, just as CODE will work with Goons to kill an XL in hisec.

The design goal is to level the playing field of people getting into space, so they can at least make that attempt. But lets say for arguments sake that a 1 man corp has put an XL in the system where my coalition has its Medium and my coalition has 60 people, I would find that rather amusing, so what? He is only going to control the area around the XL, OK he might come out to be a pain in a combat recon for example, but we will just kill him.

The game has to be looked at from the balance of sensible decisions, not at the worst case scenario that someone with more ISK then sense can do. And while I can see that in this game where people do a lot of trolling or griefing that may happen, its not a serious thing is it, so what some idiot with more ISK then sense has put a huge effort to put an XL in a C1.

Nice straw man arguments in terms of WH's, but CCP cannot base their designs on extremes like putting a XL in C2's or C1's, it might annoy you in that a player can do that to stick his middle finger up at you and you cannot kill it, but is stupid trolling.

Hisec will see them destroyed, because caps will be coming to hisec and structures will change how people operate there!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Black Pedro
Mine.
#305 - 2015-09-21 09:35:15 UTC
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
No one will contest them if they are released as such. Ergo, they won't be released as such. I am not sure how many times I have to say this.


Don't say that others wont do what you are unable to do.

Too bad they will never get the chance as the XL structures will never be released like this. CCP Ytterbium has practically confirmed this on reddit as I have linked twice already in this thread.

CCP is not going to release a structure into highsec and low-class wormholes that cannot be attacked by the vast majority of the residents that live there. Especially when in the devblog they say they want the structures to be attacked in 30 minutes in all areas of the game.

This isn't rocket science people. It's just a numbers game. There is no chance they will be released like this without dreads or some other mechanism so that they can be contested by the groups that actually live in the space where they are deployed.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#306 - 2015-09-21 09:37:59 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
No one will contest them if they are released as such. Ergo, they won't be released as such. I am not sure how many times I have to say this.


Don't say that others wont do what you are unable to do.

Too bad they will never get the chance as the XL structures will never be released like this. CCP Ytterbium has practically confirmed this on reddit as I have linked twice already in this thread.

CCP is not going to release a structure into highsec and low-class wormholes that cannot be attacked by the vast majority of the residents that live there. Especially when in the devblog they say they want the structures to be attacked in 30 minutes in all areas of the game.

This isn't rocket science people. It's just a numbers game. There is no chance they will be released like this without dreads or some other mechanism so that they can be contested by the groups that actually live in the space where they are deployed.


In which case CCP will have made the game too easy and are swayed by the possibility that someone could put an XL into a C1, not sensible at all...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#307 - 2015-09-21 09:40:44 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
No one will contest them if they are released as such. Ergo, they won't be released as such. I am not sure how many times I have to say this.


Don't say that others wont do what you are unable to do.

Too bad they will never get the chance as the XL structures will never be released like this. CCP Ytterbium has practically confirmed this on reddit as I have linked twice already in this thread.

CCP is not going to release a structure into highsec and low-class wormholes that cannot be attacked by the vast majority of the residents that live there. Especially when in the devblog they say they want the structures to be attacked in 30 minutes in all areas of the game.

This isn't rocket science people. It's just a numbers game. There is no chance they will be released like this without dreads or some other mechanism so that they can be contested by the groups that actually live in the space where they are deployed.


In which case CCP will have made the game too easy and are swayed by the possibility that someone could put an XL into a C1, not sensible at all...


Would a c1 even be valuable enough to warrant the logistics of keeping an XL station running? This may be the biggest point that would put people off in the first place...if it isn't worth it it simply won't be done
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#308 - 2015-09-21 09:43:59 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
No one will contest them if they are released as such. Ergo, they won't be released as such. I am not sure how many times I have to say this.


Don't say that others wont do what you are unable to do.

Too bad they will never get the chance as the XL structures will never be released like this. CCP Ytterbium has practically confirmed this on reddit as I have linked twice already in this thread.

CCP is not going to release a structure into highsec and low-class wormholes that cannot be attacked by the vast majority of the residents that live there. Especially when in the devblog they say they want the structures to be attacked in 30 minutes in all areas of the game.

This isn't rocket science people. It's just a numbers game. There is no chance they will be released like this without dreads or some other mechanism so that they can be contested by the groups that actually live in the space where they are deployed.


In which case CCP will have made the game too easy and are swayed by the possibility that someone could put an XL into a C1, not sensible at all...


Would a c1 even be valuable enough to warrant the logistics of keeping an XL station running? This may be the biggest point that would put people off in the first place...if it isn't worth it it simply won't be done


There is no fuel cost to have it online, only if you want to use its services, but the value proposition means that only the most richest would do it. Yeah it would be damn secure, but its a bit pointless...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Black Pedro
Mine.
#309 - 2015-09-21 09:48:23 UTC
gascanu wrote:

dude, that "target time frame" indicated it's not obligatory, can you comprehend that? it's not you have to reinforce it in max 30' it's the other way around, you can reinforce it in min 30'
as about no large high sec entitys, i've seen full fleets (250 members) fo high sec players on several occasions, but yea, keep living in your own bubble

Friend, full fleets are the exception rather than the rule. No mechanic is going to be balanced around such numbers.

As I have demonstrated the majority of highsec entities are unable to field fleets of 100+ regularly. Of course some of the largest corps can, but almost everyone else, the vast majority of the players base, cannot. Even Goonswarm couldn't get 225 players (the upper number cited in the devblog) for Burn Amarr. No mechanic will be released that allows a 1-man corp to set up a tower that requires a force of at least 100 to even attempt to attack in the targeted time frame.

The mechanic will just not be released as such. Full stop. Sorry to burst your bubble.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#310 - 2015-09-21 10:05:16 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Black Pedro wrote:
gascanu wrote:

dude, that "target time frame" indicated it's not obligatory, can you comprehend that? it's not you have to reinforce it in max 30' it's the other way around, you can reinforce it in min 30'
as about no large high sec entitys, i've seen full fleets (250 members) fo high sec players on several occasions, but yea, keep living in your own bubble

Friend, full fleets are the exception rather than the rule. No mechanic is going to be balanced around such numbers.

As I have demonstrated the majority of highsec entities are unable to field fleets of 100+ regularly. Of course some of the largest corps can, but almost everyone else, the vast majority of the players base, cannot. Even Goonswarm couldn't get 225 players (the upper number cited in the devblog) for Burn Amarr. No mechanic will be released that allows a 1-man corp to set up a tower that requires a force of at least 100 to even attempt to attack in the targeted time frame.

The mechanic will just not be released as such. Full stop. Sorry to burst your bubble.


like i said before, good luck finding one to kill in empire;
if you think the 0.0 alliances will just look at those "titan" killmails and do nothing, you are just naive
anyway, to be honest, i can't really wait to kill one of those; and since in 0.0 my alliance isn't strong enough to kill one, pls nerf them more in empire so we can kill them faster Blink
Black Pedro
Mine.
#311 - 2015-09-21 11:05:44 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

Would a c1 even be valuable enough to warrant the logistics of keeping an XL station running? This may be the biggest point that would put people off in the first place...if it isn't worth it it simply won't be done


There is no fuel cost to have it online, only if you want to use its services, but the value proposition means that only the most richest would do it. Yeah it would be damn secure, but its a bit pointless...

No, if allowed I will set one up in a C1 when I next want to live in a wormhole. We don't know all the numbers, but CCP Nullarbor said most of the cost will be in the rigs and only station services will require fuel.

So I'll just use it unrigged (I'll also want to move out at some point anyway), and without any non-defensive modules, and I will be more than five times safer (320 HP vs. 60 HP) than my current large POS which is already far too much to attack in a C1. And I won't even have to worry about bringing much fuel into the hole to boot!

Pretty much every low-class wormhole has a single player or small corp in it living out of a large POS because they are so safe they never get attacked. Unless the base price of these things (without rigs) is 10-fold more than the current large POSes (say, 5B+ ISK), everyone will just upgrade to an XL citadel and be immune to each other. If they cost more, they will still be used but it will just limit there use to more veteran players and corps with deeper pockets, who will still use them to be 100% safe from their poorer rivals who will have to use the large ones and be vulnerable. ISK tanking indeed.

It's great on paper for safety for me. I will be immune to anyone who can't bring 100 people into my wormhole over three (or perhaps two) days. In other words, 100% safe.

It's also why they won't be released like this.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#312 - 2015-09-21 11:08:05 UTC
I think he's trolling us.
A Talos can sport as much as 1400 DPS with T2 fit. I've seen a single person mining with 20 Mackinaws, so I assume there is a person who can field 20 Taloses too. It'll take him a little over an hour to reinforce XL. The same miner can easily mine 3 hours straight, so 1 hour is nothing. Case closed.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#313 - 2015-09-21 11:42:32 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
one more thing,
if you got scouted right away after start anchoring your citadel and war deced, the attackers will only have to kill the structure hp, and boom! dead citadel
and since highsec have allot of ppl around, that will be bound to happen;
even if you do not manage to war dec them in the first 15', you can always suicide some ships on it to stretch the repair timer till the war go active Blink
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#314 - 2015-09-21 11:45:16 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:


It's great on paper for safety for me. I will be immune to anyone who can't bring 100 people into my wormhole over three (or perhaps two) days. In other words, 100% safe.

Or you know, 20 Destroyers and 3 hours.
Stop talking rubbish about what is needed to reinforce these XL Citadels, you are looking more and more stupid as you do so since you have the numbers so wrong.
Philip Ogtaulmolfi
We are not bad. Just unlucky
#315 - 2015-09-21 12:44:24 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Too bad they will never get the chance as the XL structures will never be released like this. CCP Ytterbium has practically confirmed this on reddit as I have linked twice already in this thread.


If that happens it is just going to be another episode of CCP listening to a few whiners that want the game to be easy mode.

And by the way, all you have got is the impossibility of killing an XL. At least they didnĀ“t keep them and allow a 10 people gang to kill it for lolz.

Good job. As I don't like it, is better that nobody have them.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#316 - 2015-09-21 12:48:10 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Or you know, 20 Destroyers and 3 hours.
Stop talking rubbish about what is needed to reinforce these XL Citadels, you are looking more and more stupid as you do so since you have the numbers so wrong.
And we have come full circle.

No highsec or small WH group is going to spend 20 x 3h x 3 timers, or 180 hours of player time to shoot an XL citadel that doesn't drop any loot. Hardly any of them can in the first place. And what if they are actually defended?

And even if there were groups clamouring to spend all there game time grinding structures, 9 hours/person is a far cry from the 90 minutes per person the devblog says the design is intended to take.

Large POSes have ~1/5th the hp now, let's say 1/2 if really hardened (although the citadels have 20% resistances as well) and they are rarely attacked in highsec and C1/C2 wormholes. There is no way XL will be released like this or they will only very rarely be contested that is clear. I am not sure why people here are unwilling to see the obvious.


Philip Ogtaulmolfi
We are not bad. Just unlucky
#317 - 2015-09-21 12:50:46 UTC
Now that you won this one I suppose you will start a crusade to delete Titans from the game, because it is not fair that I cant not kill she with my 10 friends.

Or even better, take out of the game everything that I can't kill 1 v 1.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#318 - 2015-09-21 12:56:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
Now that you won this one I suppose you will start a crusade to delete Titans from the game, because it is not fair that I cant not kill she with my 10 friends.
Titans aren't allowed in highsec, but neither are their counters (the other capitals). How is it fair to let the strongest structures into highsec/C1/C2, but not their intended counter, the dreadnought?

Oh right, it's fair because you can in theory get together 50 or 100 of your friends and brute force kill an XL structure with way more effort than the design requires everywhere else in the game.

Right. Carebear logic.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#319 - 2015-09-21 13:27:26 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
Now that you won this one I suppose you will start a crusade to delete Titans from the game, because it is not fair that I cant not kill she with my 10 friends.
Titans aren't allowed in highsec, but neither are their counters (the other capitals). How is it fair to let the strongest structures into highsec/C1/C2, but not their intended counter, the dreadnought?

Oh right, it's fair because you can in theory get together 50 or 100 of your friends and brute force kill an XL structure with way more effort than the design requires everywhere else in the game.

Right. Carebear logic.


was a good troll for a while, i have to admit it, but now you are overdoing it Blink
Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
#320 - 2015-09-21 13:28:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Esrevid Nekkeg
Black Pedro wrote:
Dreads cannot go into a C2. Battleships cannot even go into a C1. The only viable way to attack an XL in the time frame suggested by the devblog is to bring hundreds of players flying smaller ships into the hole. And hundreds of members is exactly what the typical C1 or C2 wormhole corporation does not have.
As I said before, if CCP makes it technically impossible to deploy XL''s in the lower class Wormholes by making the initial construct too big to import there in the first place, the problem you state will just never occur.

Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format. Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......