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Their are 4 way to loan money. 3 work IRL. One works in EVE.
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Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-01-04 08:07:15 UTC
Tasko Pal wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:


I cannot help but notice that your list is sorely lacking in, "Murder your target and steal his assets while his friends flee the scene (and murder them, too)." Was this an oversight, or were you intentionally limiting yourself to methods which require no direct action on either party? If it was an oversight, then there are several more methods which you are lacking that I would be happy to expound for you.


It's a quaint pubbie custom. You give money to someone and they're supposed to give you more back.

It works just fine within Goonswarm, with the extremely occasional exception.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Ambre Alephar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-01-04 09:38:30 UTC
I loan money on trust. Both in RL and in EVE.

Maybe that's because I'm not a douche, did you have a bad experience lately OP ?
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#23 - 2012-01-04 12:04:09 UTC
I frequently loan money and assets, in EVE, on trust.

Spreading a little money around and taking a few risks can be good for you. You can't win if you don't play.
Magnu Stormhawk
#24 - 2012-01-04 12:09:29 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
I frequently steal money and assets, in EVE, on trust.

Spreading a little money around and taking a few risks can be good for me. You can't win if you don't scam.


Fixed for ya.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#25 - 2012-01-04 12:53:58 UTC
Seriously, in a game like this you benefit greatly from building positive relationships with other players. Sure, I am well known in MD for the asymmetric exploitation of such relationships... which supports my argument if anything... but not everyone in EVE is amoral and exploitative.
Magnu Stormhawk
#26 - 2012-01-04 13:47:32 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Seriously, in a game like this you benefit greatly from building positive relationships with other players. Sure, I am well known in MD for the asymmetric exploitation of such relationships... which supports my argument if anything... but not everyone in EVE is amoral and exploitative.



You're right. Maybe you could take a risk and spot me a loan of 3 bil on trust? I'll pay it back after deducting the, er, 3 bil that you owe me. We could have a positive relationship then.

On a more serious note, I mostly agree. I have been burned more than once but i have made more from taking risks than i have from being burned, and I have a few good relationships to show for it which are worth more than a few spacebucks.
Ghoest
#27 - 2012-01-04 13:53:28 UTC
Using money to make make friends is a time proven and effective tool in society.

But thats not what I was addressing.

Wherever You Went - Here You Are
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#28 - 2012-01-04 14:29:55 UTC
Ghoest wrote:
Using money to make make friends is a time proven and effective tool in society.

But thats not what I was addressing.

...and that is one of the many reasons why your statement...

Ghoest wrote:
4 Trust
This is how people lose their money.

If you dont repay your debt - nothing happens.

This is a bad idea in both the real world and in EVE.

...has little insight.

You ignore the value of trust, reputation and friendship. You ignore the benefits of gaining these and the cost of losing them. You say nothing happens, when a lot happens.
Magnu Stormhawk
#29 - 2012-01-04 14:30:00 UTC
Ghoest wrote:
Using money to make make friends is a time proven and effective tool in society.

But thats not what I was addressing.



You weren't really addressing anything. You made a mostly pointless post which happened to turn into a vaguely related discussion thread, and your only further contribution to the thread was trolling.

Also, if using money to make make friends is a time proven and effective tool in society, then trusting people in EVE cant be dumb. Its risky. Risky does not equal dumb.
Ghoest
#30 - 2012-01-04 16:18:11 UTC
This is a market forum so I assumed wrongly that people would understand I was referring to loans as investment tools - not as a way to buy friends.
Much like if I posted a Drake set up in the Mission forum I wouldnt expect players to treat it as a PVP build


So yes, I once again must lower my already low expectations for the average EVE forum poster.

Wherever You Went - Here You Are
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#31 - 2012-01-04 16:25:24 UTC
Ghoest wrote:
This is a market forum so I assumed wrongly that people would understand I was referring to loans as investment tools - not as a way to buy friends.

You cannot do justice to the subject if you arbitrarily ignore significant elements of it.

Ghoest wrote:
Much like if I posted a Drake set up in the Mission forum I wouldnt expect players to treat it as a PVP build

Much like if you posted that it was perfectly safe to step off of a high cliff, because you were not addressing the subject of gravity.

Ghoest wrote:
So yes, I once again must lower my already low expectations for the average EVE forum poster.

In my experience you get out pretty much what you put in.
Hexxx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-01-04 16:47:46 UTC
Ghoest wrote:
This is a market forum so I assumed wrongly that people would understand I was referring to loans as investment tools - not as a way to buy friends.
Much like if I posted a Drake set up in the Mission forum I wouldnt expect players to treat it as a PVP build


So yes, I once again must lower my already low expectations for the average EVE forum poster.



You haven't shown a scrap of depth concerning the topics you've whizzed by. Most people do actually care about substance here in the MD. You may lower your own expectations, but you'll find most people who lurk the MD will not - I suspect that's why you're getting so much flak.

What makes it all the more ironic is that you have a habit of calling anyone who disagrees with you a "noob".
Avensys
The Waterworks
#33 - 2012-01-04 16:56:04 UTC
Ghoest wrote:
This is a market forum so I assumed wrongly that people would understand I was referring to loans as investment tools - not as a way to buy friends.

I once had a roommate who thought that Robert Greene's The 48 Laws of Power was a "proven and effective" guide to living your life. Roll

Interpreting his everyday experiences to be consistent with that assumption was quite a challenge to him.
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
#34 - 2012-01-04 17:01:47 UTC
I agree that trust-based lending works in EVE, but only at the personal level. You can't make any type of a business out of trust based lending outside of your circle of acquaintances. This comes back to my MD philosophy, lending money is like flying in low-sec, don't lend what you can't afford to easily replace.
Levija Saplina
Ken Interplanetary Communication
#35 - 2012-01-04 17:11:17 UTC
I once lost 25k euros on trust to a "friend" who then proceeded to leave the country.

So in my opinion, RL is much more risky than EVE.

Even with collaterals.

The only true method for loaning in EVE is collateral based, with an undervalue of the collateral of around 25% - 40%.
flakeys
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-01-04 19:22:11 UTC  |  Edited by: flakeys
Levija Saplina wrote:
I once lost 25k euros on trust to a "friend" who then proceeded to leave the country.

So in my opinion, RL is much more risky than EVE.

Even with collaterals.

The only true method for loaning in EVE is collateral based, with an undervalue of the collateral of around 25% - 40%.



So you are also placing approx 36 B + of your isk/assets/bpo's in the hands of the 3rd party or single investor who would secure your new loan offer? Would be good to add that part in on your discussion thread.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Levija Saplina
Ken Interplanetary Communication
#37 - 2012-01-04 19:30:03 UTC
flakeys wrote:
Levija Saplina wrote:
I once lost 25k euros on trust to a "friend" who then proceeded to leave the country.

So in my opinion, RL is much more risky than EVE.

Even with collaterals.

The only true method for loaning in EVE is collateral based, with an undervalue of the collateral of around 25% - 40%.



So you are also placing approx 36 B + of your isk/assets/bpo's in the hands of the 3rd party or single investor who would secure your new loan offer? Would be good to add that part in on your discussion thread.


No, the investor will be holding onto the BPO and taking a role of CEO in my production corporation with an alt, I will be paying for the plex to sub his alt account and since he is one of my regular client for SCs, I don't feel threatened by him knowing the location of my production facilities.

But in most regular cases, what I am saying would apply.
Levija Saplina
Ken Interplanetary Communication
#38 - 2012-01-04 19:36:56 UTC
Oh wait, I think you got my words wrong.

Let's assume I was going the collateral way.

For a loan of 120 bil, I would be supplying the investors with around 170 bil in collateral.

By that I mean that if you take a Charon BPO, in the event of bond failure, the investors will not want to wait for their money for a long time. So to firesale the collateral, but in order to cover the 120 bil, you'd most likely have to undervalue the collateral which would mean that you'd need more collateral than the actual 120 bil value.

I think that Grendell does it like this too.
Sverige Pahis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-01-04 20:15:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Sverige Pahis
If it's all the same OP it's probably best if we take advice from someone who knows the difference between there, their and they're. You know, someone with a 3rd grade education or higher.

From what I've seen in EVE there are one of two conditions that have to be met for a legitimate loan to have any chance of filling:

1a.) Full (or more likely 110-120% of market value) collateral
-and (sometimes)-
b.) A "trusted" third party (subjective at best and not without risk) for example Chribba, Darknesss or greatly trusted newcomer CSM Chairman The Mittani.

Requiring a third party might not be necessary if the collateral is easily traded via the contract system but in some situations this might not be possible or desirable.


-OR-
2.) Knowing the borrower in real life, doesn't protect you if your buddy loses the ability to repay you due to extenuating circumstances though (real life issues, can't/won't buy GTC if business fails, etc).
Kagan Storm
Doomheim
#40 - 2012-01-05 00:33:02 UTC
You had loan contracts.
You didnt like them.
You went with this forum bond ipo my api is better then your api thing.
You did it to yourself.

Loan contracts were actually good.

So no crying.

This part of the forum is 10 years of looooooooooong hard work inventing scams, and making the area fruitful to steal other peoples money.

File a petition. Dont make a forum post Bear

My ego is the the size of my carriers jump range.
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