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Dev blog: Citadels, sieges and you v2

First post
Author
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#41 - 2015-09-17 16:29:31 UTC
CCP Strikes back.

Thank you guys. This lays a good enough foundation to give capitals new life moving forward..... + 10 interwebz











Just dont relegate the big hulls to pure structure bashing again..... for the love of...

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#42 - 2015-09-17 16:31:19 UTC
Quote:
We revaluated our position on Wormhole space asset safety from our “I feel safe in Citadel city” blog. Structures destroyed in wormhole space will see all of their assets lost when destroyed and subject to the magical loot fairy rules that would normally apply for ship cargohold.


I have mixed feelings about this.

While I think it's good that we are preserving a lot of the gameplay relating to evictions, the change will definitely push out some corps from lower class space.

Was the idea of having the asset security for Citadels in Low Class wormholes, but not High Class ever discussed? My thought was to have Asset Safety in C1-C4, but not C5-C6.

Everyone knows in C1-C3 the reason a lot of smaller groups can set up shop is because of the massive amount of HP you can get out of a large POS, and the EWAR - just makes it incredibly painful to try to siege. A lot of Industrialists will do this, and never have to actually defend their towers.

The change to Citadels means it will be easier to evict people who don't fight, but it also hurts smaller groups - especially if there is no asset safety; smaller corps will be less willing to live in C1-C3.

A lot of the larger groups complained that the amount of time and effort that go into High Class evictions, part of the motivation is the ISK pinata in the form of ships and equipment if they manage to crack the locked-out hangars. If asset safety keeps all of their loot safe, there is less motivation to invade other holes.

Pros:

- Gives smaller groups some measure of safety and allows them to establish in lower class wormholes that aren't nearly as profitable. Industrialists will still have a reasonable amount of assets at risk in the form of build jobs, BPCs, possibly gas/booster reaction products. But if you are there to do some ISK making but also fight (especially at lower skill levels), re-establishing yourself if your Citadel gets destroyed isn't the end of the world. And because the asset system restricts to that W-Space system only, it's still more difficult to retrieve them if someone else sets up shop in that hole, compared to NPC Nullsec.

-I'd expect to see C1-C3 systems trade hands more often, and it might encourage more combat in low class W-Space due to less grinding required to reinforce structures. If there is some ISK to be made by looting the structure wreck, fittings, etc that will be more of an incentive.

-C4 space since getting the second static is becoming a place for more PVP groups to base out of to attack both higher and lower class space. We've seen a few groups move from C5 down to C4 space after the change. This gives it more value as well as having the asset security. A lot of the reason I think C4 should get asset security is because of the lack of capital travel in/out of connections, and lack of capital escalations.

-C5/C6 space should get no asset security because of how valuable they are in terms of ISK generation via capital escalations. If capital escalations are being changed- for example moved to Shattered WH only, or something else - then this doesn't work, but I think it's a very good risk vs reward balance. You can make a lot of ISK in C5/C6 space, but your assets have no security. This allows larger groups to fight in that space and still keeps the motivation to fight in terms of an ISK incentive. It also keeps C5/C6 space from being a place where a group can have their Citadels constantly destroyed and just put new ones down because there is no moon lock.

Cons:

-This may discourage groups from living in C5/C6 space even more than currently because of the lack of protection. I'm honestly not sure how to solve this but I don't think the Citadels change will make that much impact.

-Some of the groups that live in C1-C3 space probably wouldn't be happy that their loot pinatas are going away. There were a few people in the last Townhall that expressed this. I think that if there is more dynamic combat in low class space it'll offset the occasional siege and loot pinata they can get. Also, if the Citadels drop a decent amount of loot in terms of salvage/minerals, and the Citadel modules that will still make it worth it. I expect if someone takes over a wormhole, there will be some negotiations on a meta level to let that person evacuate their assets.
Cobat Marland
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#43 - 2015-09-17 16:35:08 UTC
Sbrodor wrote:
omg. we fall back to the past!

i really dont see the point of difference of the past where 30 super of (choose your name favorite ally) again blobbing at own pleasure player trying to build something with time and effort.


30 dudes should always be able to kick over one guys sandcastle doesnt matter what kinda ships they use
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2015-09-17 16:37:03 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Tobias Frank wrote:
Looks promising!

Also, will we get docking scenes in the new citadels as we have now in stations/outposts when we are docked? Ship spinning is an important feature!


No docking scene. When you dock, the camera will be centered around the structure instead, so you can now play structure spinning.


Walking in stations nerf confirmed!
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2015-09-17 16:37:44 UTC
xttz wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Tobias Frank wrote:
Looks promising!

Also, will we get docking scenes in the new citadels as we have now in stations/outposts when we are docked? Ship spinning is an important feature!


No docking scene. When you dock, the camera will be centered around the structure instead, so you can now play structure spinning.


Walking in stations nerf confirmed!


And nothing of value was lost.
drunklies
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2015-09-17 16:38:04 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Tobias Frank wrote:
Looks promising!

Also, will we get docking scenes in the new citadels as we have now in stations/outposts when we are docked? Ship spinning is an important feature!


No docking scene. When you dock, the camera will be centered around the structure instead, so you can now play structure spinning.


Will we get a structure spin counter?
Will we be able to zoom in enough to pick out our current ship?
Lady Aesir
Ghost Recon Inc
#47 - 2015-09-17 16:38:56 UTC
WOW CCP are starting to show signs of life.

Bravo this looks very promising and a definite improvement on previous plans
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#48 - 2015-09-17 16:39:33 UTC
This looks rather well thought out on the face of it.
Ariz Black
#49 - 2015-09-17 16:40:31 UTC
Will there be any auto-defenses to deal with small / insignificant fleets trying to take down something big?

Assuming no defenders show up:

E.g. currently, say a gang of 5 battleships, would just die to a deathstar POS.
In the new system, the can take down a whole citadel?

There needs to be some basic form of auto-defense which will handle minor threats.
Thomas Lear
Original Sinners
Pandemic Legion
#50 - 2015-09-17 16:41:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Thomas Lear
Cobat Marland wrote:
Is it safe to assume they can be hit with fighterbombers along with guns?


This I am wondering too. I understand some details maybe under the NDA but can you at least say if Fighters/Fighter Bombers will be able to apply damage to the structures or is it only dread and bellow.

Edit: shitposter confirmed here broken quote
D'Kmal
Variables Unlimited
Urukian Collective
#51 - 2015-09-17 16:47:14 UTC  |  Edited by: D'Kmal
If lore-wise, when our capsules are destroyed, our clone signals/brainscans/whatever can make it out of a wormhole to k-space, why can't our assets? Big smile

On a serious gameplay note, I think that the idea of assets not being entirely safe in WH space is a good added risk to what is higher-rewarding space (compared to Null, Low and HiSec), and totally agree with the decision for it to not just magically pony-express into a NPC station - that would've not beein in line with the Risk vs. Reward system in my opinion.

Also good to see something other than damn entosis links, this system looks really promising as long as the numbers are right - but I'm guessing mass-tests on SiSi or Duality will help fine-tune the numbers.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#52 - 2015-09-17 16:47:34 UTC
Thomas Lear wrote:
Cobat Marland wrote:
Is it safe to assume they can be hit with fighterbombers along with guns?


This I am wondering too. I understand some details maybe under the NDA but can you at least say if Fighters/Fighter Bombers will be able to apply damage to the structures or is it only dread and bellow.

Edit: shitposter confirmed here broken quote


Ah sorry, the table on the blog wasn't clear enough. The table was just a rough representation of various ship class examples and how many of them you would need to bring to reach the damage mitigation.

There nothing preventing other capitals and supercapitals to do damage to such a structure, as long as it fits the damage mitigation limit.
Karbowiak
Sacred Templars
Fraternity.
#53 - 2015-09-17 16:48:22 UTC
Well **** me, this is actually the first thing in over a year that i've liked. Straight

Now you just need to give us buildable Stargates and convert all of nullsec into W-Space (or give us ten times the space in W-Space). Cool
Nasro Drags
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2015-09-17 16:53:03 UTC
Extend the damage mitigation feature to all ships and structures and you'll fix the F1 blob and thus make being in a large fleet far more exciting.
Cristl
#55 - 2015-09-17 16:53:16 UTC
Dreekus wrote:
All seems good except one point :
Sooo.. if you can't obliterate enemies from grid/system you will eventually loose? (not able to help repair citadel) Enemy shoot 1 hit every 29min 50sec.

Maybe you should add something like min damage required to reset repair timer and/or remote assist modules shorten that timer and/or remote assist modules rise min damage required?


Maybe roll that into the damage mitigation thing. Not only is there a max damage every 30s, but a min too?
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2015-09-17 16:54:04 UTC
Some of the WIP artwork has multiple hangars... does that mean multiple undock points are happening?
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#57 - 2015-09-17 16:54:57 UTC
Lady Aesir wrote:
WOW CCP are starting to show signs of life

You should also watch tonight's o7 show at 20:00 UTCBig smile

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer

Bed Bugg
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2015-09-17 16:56:30 UTC
Wow – all great except the unbelievably sh*ty wormhole idiocy.

So another way to focus in like a laser on screwing over the little guys.

Way to go! You have now made 90% of the features for citadels worthless in WH space.
Smart folks will just develop elaborate workarounds to this.

Welp, told you so.

Ffs unintended consequences.
Cobat Marland
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#59 - 2015-09-17 17:00:10 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
There nothing preventing other capitals and supercapitals to do damage to such a structure, as long as it fits the damage mitigation limit.

Thanks man, I just want a role for my 30b isk tryhard chariot.
Barubary Evans
Doomheim
#60 - 2015-09-17 17:00:59 UTC
Bed Bugg wrote:
Wow – all great except the unbelievably sh*ty wormhole idiocy.

...

Way to go! You have now made 90% of the features for citadels worthless in WH space.

You realize that Wormholers basically asked for the Wormhole exceptions, leaving WSpace a risky venture? There have been meetings and gatherings and townhalls and a fair amount of chat in no small number of boards, forums, and threads, and the overwhelming response has been pushing for such WH exceptions.

If you don't like them, where were you when they were being talked about?