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PIE and the 24th Imperial Crusade Threaten The Disciples of Ston
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#41 - 2012-01-04 11:52:47 UTC
I doubt simply asking questions or making a diplomatic inquiry would have been an issue. But that was not what happened.

The Disciples where "informed" that their work "is to be investigated", Ms. Goldcore demanded a tour through the facilities, and threatened with "military action" in the case of non-compliance. Then she also considered naming herself or her corporation to anyone an "aggressive act" and threatened with consequences.

That is not a simple request for information, not asking questions about alleged wrongdoing, and not a simple diplomatic contact. It's the actions of a bully who wants to throw around its weight. And despite these aggressive acts on part of PIE Inc., the Disciples still offer their representative a tour of the facilities.

Publishing these acts indeed was embarrassing, but it wasn't the Disciples who were embarrassed here.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#42 - 2012-01-04 11:57:13 UTC
Having things done behind closed doors does not begin with an implicit threat that if things are moved from behind those closed doors there will be violence done to the offending party. This is especially true when one of the groups are avowed pacifists with no means to defend themselves should they come under attack.

It also does not mean that 'No one must be aware that we are involved in such dealings in any way'.

In short, Mr. Blake, what happened was that a lone member of PIE incorporated decided to act on her own to bully a group that did not exactly agree with her ideals. PIE has now decided to go all-in on the idiocy, I suppose, and back her actions officially, instead of disavowing the rogue pilot.

I am amazed you don't get into more messes if you let fresh-into-the-company pilots dictate your actions, Admiral.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2012-01-04 12:19:11 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
I doubt simply asking questions or making a diplomatic inquiry would have been an issue. But that was not what happened.

The Disciples where "informed" that their work "is to be investigated", Ms. Goldcore demanded a tour through the facilities, and threatened with "military action" in the case of non-compliance. Then she also considered naming herself or her corporation to anyone an "aggressive act" and threatened with consequences.

That is not a simple request for information, not asking questions about alleged wrongdoing, and not a simple diplomatic contact. It's the actions of a bully who wants to throw around its weight. And despite these aggressive acts on part of PIE Inc., the Disciples still offer their representative a tour of the facilities.

Publishing these acts indeed was embarrassing, but it wasn't the Disciples who were embarrassed here.


At least we're willing to ask the questions, unlike EM did when it came to IHR.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#44 - 2012-01-04 12:24:25 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
At least we're willing to ask the questions, unlike EM did when it came to IHR.
I'm afraid that was before my time, but from what I have read about the situation, we simply believed their own words. You could do likewise with the Disciples. :-)
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#45 - 2012-01-04 12:27:31 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
At least we're willing to ask the questions, unlike EM did when it came to IHR.
I'm afraid that was before my time, but from what I have read about the situation, we simply believed their own words. You could do likewise with the Disciples. :-)


So you believed IHR when they said that they weren't illegally obtaining slaves then attacked them in Amarrian space anyway while saying that you had secret evidence that they were lying?

That's good to know.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Ascentior
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2012-01-04 12:30:47 UTC
Diplomacy is Private. Propaganda is Public.

This announcement and the war drums that follow are the perfect example. Perhaps this conversation has revealed more about the Disciples' true intention more than any investigation ever could.

Admiral of PIE Inc., Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris (See 'PIE Public' for recruitment)

Honorary Fabricator-General of the Imperial Navy

Chosen by God to serve the Empire.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#47 - 2012-01-04 12:41:59 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
As I said, that was before my time. If you wish to discuss that particular, five year old incident, you might want to find someone who was around back then. (Though I recommend starting a new thread, trying to derail this one to distract from your diplomatic fuckup there is a bit transparent.)
Lucius Vindictus
Arachnos
#48 - 2012-01-04 13:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucius Vindictus
The only thing that surprises me is that this was supposed to remain a secret.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#49 - 2012-01-04 13:40:48 UTC
Ascentior wrote:
Diplomacy is Private. Propaganda is Public.

This announcement and the war drums that follow are the perfect example. Perhaps this conversation has revealed more about the Disciples' true intention more than any investigation ever could.


As a trained diplomat, I have decided to mercifully teach you how this request could have been phrased in a diplomatic manner.

"To Manwe Todako, CEO of The Disciples of Ston

I, acting in official status as a member of the 24th Imperial Crusade, and citing the following extraterritorial agreements, would like to request a tour of your matriculation centers to ensure that rescued persons therein are not being funneled towards anti-Amarrian entities. We consider this a matter of grave urgency, and would like this tour to be held at your earliest possible conveinence."

Then you follow this up with all your relevant titles and what not, in the Name of the Emperess, Long May She Reign, and so on and so forth.

It does not come across as a threat, while making clear your intentions. It would certaintly be more well received.

More to the point, it doesn't ask that the request itself remain a secret, while maintaining the 'behind closed doors' policy that both I and the Empire share.

Happy to help,

Tiberious Thessalonia
Gatherer:Harvester
True Slave Foundations
Ascentior
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#50 - 2012-01-04 13:48:48 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:

As a trained diplomat, I have decided to mercifully teach you how this request could have been phrased in a diplomatic manner.

As a trained pilot, tactician, commander and diplomat, nothing changes. If someone holds an olive branch and a sword and tells you to pick a hand, you only pick the sword if you want a fight.

Admiral of PIE Inc., Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris (See 'PIE Public' for recruitment)

Honorary Fabricator-General of the Imperial Navy

Chosen by God to serve the Empire.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#51 - 2012-01-04 13:54:24 UTC
Ascentior wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:

As a trained diplomat, I have decided to mercifully teach you how this request could have been phrased in a diplomatic manner.

As a trained pilot, tactician, commander and diplomat, nothing changes. If someone holds an olive branch and a sword and tells you to pick a hand, you only pick the sword if you want a fight.


And you completely missed my point. There was no olive branch in Ms. Goldcore's hand. There was a poorly held sword.

It's fairly obvious that she was acting on her own. The only thing that confuses me here is that the admirality has not shoved her under the punisher and have instead decided to back her rather poorly handled attempt to bully some pacifist monks.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#52 - 2012-01-04 13:55:39 UTC
Quite frankly, PIE believing it has any right at all to demand other capsuleer organizations do as it wishes is laughable at best. War crimes? Really? You really want to accuse anyone else of "war crimes"? Last I checked, you know... genocide, destruction of planets, etc, are all quite firmly in the realm of "war crimes"

Your own house is made of very, very fragile glass in this department, and you just threw a stone... might wanna stop before anything else is broken.

And yes, Conventia, I would be happy if you would represent Teraa Matar, should this little "inspection tour" take place. Seems strangely appropriate.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#53 - 2012-01-04 13:58:58 UTC
I mean, I don't even agree with the Disciples of Ston on a first principles basis, and it's still fairly clear to me that they are doing nothing wrong here.

When someone is bullying you, you can either fight back, or call for help. The Stonites refuse as a matter of principle to fight. They only have a few other options.

Thankfully for them, they have also realized the value of maintaining a respectful demeanor with people who are neutral, or even just very lightly hostile to them. We may not agree with them, but if it comes down to a fight between them and PIE, I know which side I'll be adding my lasers on.
Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#54 - 2012-01-04 14:54:13 UTC
Do the Disciples of Ston have something to hide? Yes!

1. We have former slaves to hide and protect from future enslavement so we use covert transport to take them where they wish to live and work in Republic, Federation, and State territories. We hide them from Customs scanning vessels who threaten to confiscate them and no one knows where they are taken or what happens to them. We hide these former slaves in our Matriculation Centers so they are not taken forcibly back into slavery. So we keep the location of our Centers secret, though any intelligent person could probably find out where they are. We are not sneaky people nor are we trained agents who are skilled at hiding our movements, but if you want to say that we are hiding these rescued people from pro-slavery PIE and the 24th Imperial Crusade, then yes.
2. We hide the names of our anti-slavery corporate contacts that provide free station space for our matriculation centers. We hide the identity of the multi-national corporations that help us. The anti-slavery networks that we have among middle ranking multi-national corporation executives allow us to place our Matriculation Centers in a somewhat decentralized way. These executives, managers, and right down to the station workers who share our vision and keep our secrets are people we hide from the eyes of PIE and the 24th Imperial Crusade.

What we are not hiding:
1. Our Corporate HQ is in the House of records Information Center orbiting Moon 13 of Korma V. Located there is our Academic Center, Vocational Learning Center, Clone Body Return Service, Homeless Shelter, Detention Center, Main Office of General Operations, and our Development Center. Our Development office would be glad to offer tours to any interested. You might especially enjoy seeing the service dog training program for former slaver hounds. Concord has been openly invited to tour and evaluate our detention facility. Former slaves work there, go to school there, teach there, and live there. The same will be true for our extension offices in Egbinger when they are up and running.
2. We are not hiding that we assist in the transport only of former slaves to wherever they wish to go. We have transported former slaves to Pator, Rens, and Villore. This is not news as we reported this in IGS previously. We also transported former slaves to the “Freedom Program” sponsored by Electus Matari. This also is not news because we reported this openly in IGS previously. Now if you wish to call that “funneling former slaves to anti-empire whatever,” that is your choice.

SANKOFA
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#55 - 2012-01-04 14:59:25 UTC
Manwe Todako wrote:
Do the Disciples of Ston have something to hide? Yes!

1. We have former slaves to hide and protect from future enslavement so we use covert transport to take them where they wish to live and work in Republic, Federation, and State territories. We hide them from Customs scanning vessels who threaten to confiscate them and no one knows where they are taken or what happens to them. We hide these former slaves in our Matriculation Centers so they are not taken forcibly back into slavery. So we keep the location of our Centers secret, though any intelligent person could probably find out where they are. We are not sneaky people nor are we trained agents who are skilled at hiding our movements, but if you want to say that we are hiding these rescued people from pro-slavery PIE and the 24th Imperial Crusade, then yes.
2. We hide the names of our anti-slavery corporate contacts that provide free station space for our matriculation centers. We hide the identity of the multi-national corporations that help us. The anti-slavery networks that we have among middle ranking multi-national corporation executives allow us to place our Matriculation Centers in a somewhat decentralized way. These executives, managers, and right down to the station workers who share our vision and keep our secrets are people we hide from the eyes of PIE and the 24th Imperial Crusade.

What we are not hiding:
1. Our Corporate HQ is in the House of records Information Center orbiting Moon 13 of Korma V. Located there is our Academic Center, Vocational Learning Center, Clone Body Return Service, Homeless Shelter, Detention Center, Main Office of General Operations, and our Development Center. Our Development office would be glad to offer tours to any interested. You might especially enjoy seeing the service dog training program for former slaver hounds. Concord has been openly invited to tour and evaluate our detention facility. Former slaves work there, go to school there, teach there, and live there. The same will be true for our extension offices in Egbinger when they are up and running.
2. We are not hiding that we assist in the transport only of former slaves to wherever they wish to go. We have transported former slaves to Pator, Rens, and Villore. This is not news as we reported this in IGS previously. We also transported former slaves to the “Freedom Program” sponsored by Electus Matari. This also is not news because we reported this openly in IGS previously. Now if you wish to call that “funneling former slaves to anti-empire whatever,” that is your choice.



Since you wish to do this in public...

Are you able to provide the appropriate documentation to confirm that these former slaves have indeed been released in a manner consistent with Amarrian law?

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#56 - 2012-01-04 15:02:51 UTC
You may also want to mention that you return rescuees to slavery if that is what they ask you to do. Just a thought.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#57 - 2012-01-04 15:06:17 UTC
Rodj, are you saying that PIE Inc. now has the authority to uphold Amarrian Law on non-Amarrian organizations now? I would like to see where in your charter you claim that ability, and the official documentation from the MIO which allows you to do so.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#58 - 2012-01-04 15:10:08 UTC
That wouldn't even be the MIO, what am I thinking? I suppose you could claim that authority under the Imperial Navy, but in that case your only course of option and only method of enforcing your claim on the Stonites is to go to war with them. Do you really want to push PIE Inc into several more wars you will never undock for in order to protect the reputation of one rogue pilot?
Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#59 - 2012-01-04 15:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Manwe Todako
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
You may also want to mention that you return rescuees to slavery if that is what they ask you to do. Just a thought.


Thank you Mr. Thessalonia. Yes we have done this on three occasions. The first was when a slave by the name of Tobias requested to be placed under a "benevolent holder" to continue his "enlightenment" in Amarrian religion. Ston arranged the transfer of Tobias to the Goldcore family. It was later learned that he was captured by sansha raiders while in a transport between Goldcore facilities. The second was the recent transfer of patients from our medical facility in Center #4 to the facilities of one Mr. Ran'shad. I cannot conform the latter because Disciple TaPang has been out of communication for some time.

As for Mr. Blake's request: He will need to elaborate as to what he means by "amarrian law." The great tragedy of all this is the continual refusal of all the governments and Concord to provide a legal, binding mechanism for capsuleer pilots to rescue former slaves and free them so they are re-designated as citizens that cannot be sold or re-enslaved. Right now this is not an option. Instead, the Disciples of Ston make an ongoing commitment to every former slave we rescue to do all we can to protect, transport, and assist them wherever they wish to go. We only relinguish this when they request to come under the care or help of someone else as in the case of Tobias, the patients, and the group that went to the Electus Matari It is sad, that even after they are rescued, all the governments still consider them slaves.

SANKOFA
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#60 - 2012-01-04 15:21:10 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Rodj, are you saying that PIE Inc. now has the authority to uphold Amarrian Law on non-Amarrian organizations now? I would like to see where in your charter you claim that ability, and the official documentation from the MIO which allows you to do so.


We have the same authority as every other capsuleer organisation.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori