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Dev Blog: Next set of Sov and Capital Movement Iterations

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Author
VaL Iscariot
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#301 - 2015-09-16 14:27:19 UTC
i'll count this as yet another grand example of CCP listening to their players. That jump fatiuge change is exactly what I wanted to read. The 5ly range still burns my buttons but since I'm no longer punished for using my carriers, I'll live with it. And here I thought the September release was just going to be a station shader update. Good job, CCP. Keep it going.

p.s. Since you're listening, bring back the chronicles already. geez.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#302 - 2015-09-16 16:18:18 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:

I genuinely dont understand what you say, as passive regen was about 9 hours for sov structures and 6 hours for POS, iirc. And it was enough pita even then.
You know, I can live with this - you dont need to go on that "HTFU" pitch. But the stated goal of the changes was "to ensure the process of taking sov is as fun as possible" and instead boredom is getting buffed, so I just wander - what's happening?


People simply tosses carriers at the problem so time to take down a station was considerably shorter. 3 hours is more than enough time. By far the biggest issue with fozziesov is the use of ships built to evade fights.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#303 - 2015-09-16 17:05:41 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
I'm generally not a fan of arbitrary limits and special rules, but in the case of the "no entosis 'Ceptors" change it makes sense. They wanted to limit entosis 'Ceptors, not all entosis frigates, and this is pretty much the only way to do it. Kudos to CCP for trying to fix a specific problem with a scalpel (or a band aid depending on your point of view) instead of a chainsaw.


Or they could remove the ridiculous broken bubble nullification and we wouldn't even need arbitrary restrictions on what can and cannot fit entosis modules.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#304 - 2015-09-16 18:36:45 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Or they could remove the ridiculous broken bubble nullification and we wouldn't even need arbitrary restrictions on what can and cannot fit entosis modules.

Bubble-immune 'Ceptors in and of themselves aren't much of a problem. Yes, they're fast and hard to catch which I'm sure is frustrating to sov holders, but they lack the DPS to actually kill much of anything. They need large numbers, or bubble-vulnerable support, to be a real threat to ships and such.

But entosis 'Ceptors actually had the potential to threaten sov structures, which is pretty much the exact opposite of not being able to kill much of anything. Removing that specific combination was precisely the right thing to do given that they don't seem to think that 'Ceptors in general were an issue.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#305 - 2015-09-16 22:41:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


People simply tosses carriers at the problem so time to take down a station was considerably shorter. 3 hours is more than enough time. By far the biggest issue with fozziesov is the use of ships built to evade fights.

No it isn't. (It is only a small part of the problem)
The underlying problem with fozziesov is exactly the same as it was with Dominion.
Groups using blob dominance to troll (and try to extort) small sov holders while the big groups still have no reason to fight each other. That is and always will be the problem with, not only sov but nulsec in general.

(blob dominance - massive amounts of supers/capitals, extreme over shipping, huge invulnerable fleets)

Fozzies jump range nerfs played right into the hands of the super blobs. It may take them a little longer to get there but once they arrive - There is NOTHING to counter them. So they gain control of the space (moons etc), without the cost and burden of holding sov.

-- - -- - -- - --
Until moon mining is fixed, nothing else devs attempt matters. You can't fix sov, you won't create real content when there is broken mechanics that are being ignored.

Moon mining in sov space should require sov - This gives groups a reason to fight.
"Lowsec moons will become even more popular, it would unbalance lowsec" - Good, it then allows groups who want to fight for a home in sov the ability and a reason to. Let the large groups who don't want to hold sov fight over a few moons in lowsec - It is after all where 90% of Eve content is generated.

Lastly, now troll ceptors aren't an issue - Remove vulnerability windows.
Keep timers and indexes but allow sov to be attacked (reinforced) and or defended 24/7. If your shite gets RF'd, you can set a timer (within 48hrs of it being RF'd) that suits you to defend it but the initial timer should not be restricted to when you can be there to watch. (Eve by numbers = Limited content)

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#306 - 2015-09-17 04:33:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:

I genuinely dont understand what you say, as passive regen was about 9 hours for sov structures and 6 hours for POS, iirc. And it was enough pita even then.
You know, I can live with this - you dont need to go on that "HTFU" pitch. But the stated goal of the changes was "to ensure the process of taking sov is as fun as possible" and instead boredom is getting buffed, so I just wander - what's happening?


People simply tosses carriers at the problem so time to take down a station was considerably shorter. 3 hours is more than enough time. By far the biggest issue with fozziesov is the use of ships built to evade fights.

If people do something, then I couldnt care less.
But we're talking about unattended event.
Defenders do nothing, and the timer is getting won.
And attackers cannot do anything, because it's 4 am.
No fights. No fun. Flawed mechanics.
davet517
Raata Invicti
#307 - 2015-09-17 13:04:32 UTC
All you did is make is easier for people who don't care, not to care. You completely misunderstand the problem.

Since you created the mechanics, you should understand that when someone sets a timer, whether that's a solo nobody in an interceptor, or a major alliance, ANYONE can show up for a fight when that timer expires. It doesn't have to be that guy in the solo interceptor. Anyone can. Nobody does. That's your problem. Listen carefully: Nobody cares.

If anyone cared, they'd be showing up to these timers whether they created them or not, but, that would be a waste of time, usually. Because the defender, as often as not, doesn't care. They're not going to show up for a fight, if it actually looks like a fight. Take the sov. What did you achieve? Now you have some sov. Congratulations, but, no fight for you.

Iterating over these mechanics isn't going to make people care about sov again. Stop wasting your energy, and work the actual problem.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#308 - 2015-09-18 14:31:06 UTC
davet517 wrote:
Since you created the mechanics, you should understand that when someone sets a timer, whether that's a solo nobody in an interceptor, or a major alliance, ANYONE can show up for a fight when that timer expires. It doesn't have to be that guy in the solo interceptor. Anyone can. Nobody does. That's your problem. Listen carefully: Nobody cares.

Valid point and good words.
Still, I'd prefer the healthy mechanics already in place when (sure it's when, not if) sov itself becomes desirable.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#309 - 2015-09-19 12:48:03 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
davet517 wrote:
Since you created the mechanics, you should understand that when someone sets a timer, whether that's a solo nobody in an interceptor, or a major alliance, ANYONE can show up for a fight when that timer expires. It doesn't have to be that guy in the solo interceptor. Anyone can. Nobody does. That's your problem. Listen carefully: Nobody cares.

Valid point and good words.
Still, I'd prefer the healthy mechanics already in place when (sure it's when, not if) sov itself becomes desirable.

Unless CCP make some very drastic changes "if" sov becomes desirable, is far more appropriate.

Sov is worthless because it has nothing to offer you can't get without owning sov.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Leah Agenon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#310 - 2015-09-22 01:18:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Leah Agenon
On the topic of Jump fatigue, why not build on the modes that have been implemented for Destroyers and apply it to capitals.

Eliminate fatigues as it exists today, but implement a Travel, Operation mode. In travel mode the capital has not defenses or weapons capability, In operation mode it is fully functional but no travel capability. Ship won't be able to be retrieved from hangar until operation mode is fully enabled. Mode switching would be allowed only in station / citadel.

For a JF which has a single one role the only option would be travel. For the rorqual, which has additional roles capability, you could set a travel, operation, and industrial mode. Meaning penalty to weapons if fitted but not industrial operations.

However, when switching from travel mode to operation mode then you implement the fatigue time before the operation mode becomes active.

So let stay I make two consecutive full jumps I would have something like 8 or 10 hours of fatigue. Upon arrival at my destination I decide to go into operation mode it will take the same 8 to 10 hours before that mode become active and my weapons / defense are working.

If I leave my capital in station in travel mode for a week, then when I decide to switch back to operation mode, then the operation mode still takes these 8 to 10 hours to become fully operational. That way people don't circumvent the penalty.

By enabling such scenario you maintain control over power projection, but you do not penalize the pilot potential activity by having to wait hours on travel routes.

Cheers, Shocked
marly cortez
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#311 - 2015-09-27 05:51:21 UTC
Anything introduced into EVE by CCP that detracts from a players personal or group content generation ability or extends the required play time with periods of 'Dead Waiting' at this time in the games current critical state is a really bad idea and will not end well, reducing it is not the answer.

The fatigue mechanics have caused serious issues for players over the past months and while the idea behind it might have appeared appealing to some, Overall coupled with past iteration negatives, (Features), going back a long way in EVE this issue has proven to be one step to far for many players.

Good to see Drakes getting some TLC at last though...Maybe whats left of my lot still playing the game will stop moaning about them now.

Humanity is the thin veneer that remains after you remove the baffled chimp.

shaun 27
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#312 - 2015-09-27 11:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: shaun 27
Not sure if someone has already said this as i haven't seen a response from a dev, but will all existing fatigue timers be completely reset with the changes or will people with maxed timers go into the new 5 day fatigue 12 hour cooloff period cycle. Be nice if you could do a complete reset but heh were see.

Many thanks.

shaun 27
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#313 - 2015-09-28 05:59:52 UTC
marly cortez wrote:
Anything introduced into EVE by CCP that detracts from a players personal or group content generation ability or extends the required play time with periods of 'Dead Waiting' at this time in the games current critical state is a really bad idea and will not end well, reducing it is not the answer.

The fatigue mechanics have caused serious issues for players over the past months and while the idea behind it might have appeared appealing to some, Overall coupled with past iteration negatives, (Features), going back a long way in EVE this issue has proven to be one step to far for many players.

Good to see Drakes getting some TLC at last though...Maybe whats left of my lot still playing the game will stop moaning about them now.


Fatigue mechanics have not caused any serious issues for players. It may have caused issues to you, because you are terrible at this game, but you cant extend statements like that to "players".
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#314 - 2015-09-28 07:44:17 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
marly cortez wrote:
Anything introduced into EVE by CCP that detracts from a players personal or group content generation ability or extends the required play time with periods of 'Dead Waiting' at this time in the games current critical state is a really bad idea and will not end well, reducing it is not the answer.

The fatigue mechanics have caused serious issues for players over the past months and while the idea behind it might have appeared appealing to some, Overall coupled with past iteration negatives, (Features), going back a long way in EVE this issue has proven to be one step to far for many players.

Good to see Drakes getting some TLC at last though...Maybe whats left of my lot still playing the game will stop moaning about them now.


Fatigue mechanics have not caused any serious issues for players. It may have caused issues to you, because you are terrible at this game, but you cant extend statements like that to "players".

Actually fatigue mechanics have caused lots of issues for many players.
The only players affected by fatigue are those who, fly capitals, participate in blops or want to use jump bridges.

Fatigue and jump range nerfs have had a major affect on just about everyone who does more than run around in worm space or never leave empire.
Maybe CCP should balance fatigue by introducing it to worm holes - You move through a portal in space, you incur fatigue. After all, jumping through a hole in space where you have no idea where you will land would be far more likely to cause pilot fatigue than jumping through a player generated portal with a fixed destination.


CCP adjusting fatigue mechanics, would to anyone open minded, be an indication they see it as a problem.


Fatigue should be on ships not players - A pilot getting tired because his ship used a jump portal - Just does not make sense.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#315 - 2015-09-28 11:27:12 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
marly cortez wrote:
Anything introduced into EVE by CCP that detracts from a players personal or group content generation ability or extends the required play time with periods of 'Dead Waiting' at this time in the games current critical state is a really bad idea and will not end well, reducing it is not the answer.

The fatigue mechanics have caused serious issues for players over the past months and while the idea behind it might have appeared appealing to some, Overall coupled with past iteration negatives, (Features), going back a long way in EVE this issue has proven to be one step to far for many players.

Good to see Drakes getting some TLC at last though...Maybe whats left of my lot still playing the game will stop moaning about them now.


Fatigue mechanics have not caused any serious issues for players. It may have caused issues to you, because you are terrible at this game, but you cant extend statements like that to "players".

Actually fatigue mechanics have caused lots of issues for many players.
The only players affected by fatigue are those who, fly capitals, participate in blops or want to use jump bridges.

Fatigue and jump range nerfs have had a major affect on just about everyone who does more than run around in worm space or never leave empire.
Maybe CCP should balance fatigue by introducing it to worm holes - You move through a portal in space, you incur fatigue. After all, jumping through a hole in space where you have no idea where you will land would be far more likely to cause pilot fatigue than jumping through a player generated portal with a fixed destination.


CCP adjusting fatigue mechanics, would to anyone open minded, be an indication they see it as a problem.


Fatigue should be on ships not players - A pilot getting tired because his ship used a jump portal - Just does not make sense.



I used jump bridges daily when we still were in TRI, did and still do blops and used one of my caps last night. Jump fatigue has not affected my game experience negatively one bit. Capping the fatigue at 5 days is irrelevant to me, never had more than one day.

Fatigue and activation timers fixed the imbalance of biggest ships being the fastest ones.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#316 - 2015-09-28 13:09:13 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
marly cortez wrote:
Anything introduced into EVE by CCP that detracts from a players personal or group content generation ability or extends the required play time with periods of 'Dead Waiting' at this time in the games current critical state is a really bad idea and will not end well, reducing it is not the answer.

The fatigue mechanics have caused serious issues for players over the past months and while the idea behind it might have appeared appealing to some, Overall coupled with past iteration negatives, (Features), going back a long way in EVE this issue has proven to be one step to far for many players.

Good to see Drakes getting some TLC at last though...Maybe whats left of my lot still playing the game will stop moaning about them now.


Fatigue mechanics have not caused any serious issues for players. It may have caused issues to you, because you are terrible at this game, but you cant extend statements like that to "players".

Actually fatigue mechanics have caused lots of issues for many players.
The only players affected by fatigue are those who, fly capitals, participate in blops or want to use jump bridges.

Fatigue and jump range nerfs have had a major affect on just about everyone who does more than run around in worm space or never leave empire.
Maybe CCP should balance fatigue by introducing it to worm holes - You move through a portal in space, you incur fatigue. After all, jumping through a hole in space where you have no idea where you will land would be far more likely to cause pilot fatigue than jumping through a player generated portal with a fixed destination.


CCP adjusting fatigue mechanics, would to anyone open minded, be an indication they see it as a problem.


Fatigue should be on ships not players - A pilot getting tired because his ship used a jump portal - Just does not make sense.



I used jump bridges daily when we still were in TRI, did and still do blops and used one of my caps last night. Jump fatigue has not affected my game experience negatively one bit. Capping the fatigue at 5 days is irrelevant to me, never had more than one day.

Fatigue and activation timers fixed the imbalance of biggest ships being the fastest ones.

It did.. It also allows supers and titans to be used by certain groups with near impunity in areas where there is nothing to counter them.
Pluses and minuses all round.
For those in the line of fire of un-contestable supers, more minuses.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

marly cortez
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#317 - 2015-10-12 20:31:35 UTC  |  Edited by: marly cortez
For those of us looking at more than the individuals aspect of the Jump fatigue mechanics it was not in reference to any one particular ship flown but to the overall effect it actually had on players, This gave rise to some questions being asked as to why they found them a problem in relation in there day to day EVE activities, the results were revealing as it had ramifications far beyond those intended by CCP, that of restrictions in Power projection, That is unless it was there actual intention.

That the mechanics make no distinction between a Titan down to a Pod in relation to the fatigue acquired is the main issue here and I would suggest that anything below the size of BS and variants be exempt as that may go a long way to removing the current block on player movement in fleets, so removing the perceived reason for loss of player generated content while not actually changing the overall effect of heavy weight power projection reduction the mechanic imparts to the game.

As for it as a feature generating asymmetrical warfare it should be noted that in such a scenario, it is always the winners that win.....The losers always loose, as a concept it will not have the desired effect on EVE even coupled with FozzieSov, Citadels and a Homogeneous Universe, All of which work against the long term future health of the game.

Humanity is the thin veneer that remains after you remove the baffled chimp.