Player Features and Ideas Discussion

It's actaully really solid "speculation". CCP statistics state that characters engaging in PvP have more sustain than characters that lose no ships. Combining this with more characters having *lots of fun*, *over and over again*, it's obviously decent. Furthermore, it fulfills the intrinsic reward system that CCP's stating it would like to replace extrinsic rewards with -- that includes the initiative of learning and getting great at the game.

There's obviously no rebuttal for this, because more characters having fun, more subs from entertainment, and more characters for other types of content is exactly the direction of this game that's mentioned by Fanfest keynotes.


As mentioned in other threads, how would they realize what gives them excitement and confidence if they haven't tried it? How can they try it if they forego all of their "unlocks" from SP with a fresh character? It's actually really counter-intuitive, this suggestion, for developing the idea of "interesting progression" (if their character so simply becomes worthless for their interests).

It's more to be said for the validity of learning environments and newbie-encouraging content.


Technically, this whole statement is mitigated by arenas only being "on" for one hour per uptime or something. How simple the compromise is!

"Slippery slope" is a logical fallacy and is unhelpful for further discussion.

Ha ha ha.... Ha ha.... ha. Whew, THAT was a good laugh.


'Statistics' and 'Obviously no rebuttal'..... Yet the monkey who thinketh he is tall cannot provide a solid fact. Come now, if you're going to start quoting statistics, let's see some of these CCP quotes, and let's see undeniable proof that your proposed arena is going to be inherently fun, will draw more subs, and how arena's are the type of 'other content' that CCP was intending.

Here's your rebuttal: CCP has had 12 years now(or is it 11) to add your arena, and have consistently chosen not to. They have added things that restrict the range of things you can bring into combat(no caps in high sec, gate sizes on FW complexes, WH mass limits), but CCP has, time and again, stuck to its roots. As long as its not against the EULA, it's pretty much free game. CCP has also maintained the ability for players to go out and DO these things.

Effectively, you have nothing. Contract me your stuff and uninstall.



https://www.themittani.com/columns/alod-credit-card-warlord


^THIS is why Eve is beautiful, and why 'instanced PVP' is horrible.







Problem with FW is alot of those duders are as dramatic as middle school girls. Over 2mil isk frigates..... Le sigh.

The only people who are being 'forced' to play on the test server are the ones who dont want a sandbox and non-consensual PvP to be made impossible.

I have absolutely no problem with arenas that can be broken into. I had no problems with Dojo's until it was clear they could not be broken into (among other issues).

1. How can arenas prepare for real PVP if you cannot have "real" PVP in these arenas? Real PVP is about unforeseen events and coincidences, it is about reacting to these events. You do not get these events in an arena, you cannot be prepared in an arena for real PVP.
2. That can easily be explained on the test server as modules do not cost a lot there and you can actually test things on the test server without bankrupting yourself. Or you can test them with your corp mates or in E-Uni or RVB in a proper testing environment with experienced and capable people under real circumstances.
3. It is already easy, as I have described above. What it requires is some ingenuity and imagination, which goes right back my stance in the How to safe EVE more Newbs thread and that we do not need daft people in the game.
4. See above and above.
5. This certainly does not create a way to determine who's most skilled in the game because the arena system takes away skill to compete and survive in PVP to begin with. There is no randomness to arenas, no sudden turns of events or third-parties appearing on your grid to mess with the ongoing fight. What you might learn is who can slaughter newbs and less capable people the most and fastest in a controlled environment, nothing more.
6. Casual activities already exist, as described above.
7. How does something add to the sandbox (which is about player creations and player driven events and developments) when it takes away many elements of the sandbox and educates people that the game is taking care of their PVP needs by setting them up with other people? People do not know what the sandbox is? Then these people should be shown the Butterfly Effect. This trailer illustrates very clearly what the sandbox is about.
8. Weren't you just moments ago writing about "real PVP"? Real PVP is not about fairness, real PVP is about overcoming obstacles and fighting the odds stacked against you and coming out on top. Fairness is something for tournaments. And you can guarantee fairness to large extend in things like I described above.
9. That is one of the big problems with the arena system. It just works, no players need to do things to make it work except for pressing a button and then wait for another person to press a button. How well this kind of match making works is clearly visible in games like WOT or the same publisher's WOW where you get matched to teams and people way above your class and capabilities on a regular basis by the looks.
10. Anyone can participate in RVB or in weekly held tournaments organized by some player (organization with enough resources and manpower to do this reliably).

--

Dror, you can try out anything with your first char. If you are in a corp, where's the problem? You hear from RVB or a similar organization and you can just join them and still stay in contact with your other guys/friends via chats and their coms. You do not necessarily need lots of SP to have fun in RVB or some public fleets (I remember from that other thread you are talking about that Spectre (iirc) was handing out Probes even with low skill fittings). You cannot participate in everything but this is the point of the skill system in EVE and in virtually any game: You unlock things as you progress through the game and available keys to unlock more tools. If their interests are BS from day 1, they go buy a character that actually has the necessary skills trained, and then can go die repeatedly in a fire as they deserve for their daftness and clinging to wrong expectations and demands.

The "learning environment and newbie-encouraging content" is a lot more real and engaging in entities like E-Uni, Appetite for Destruction, or public fleets than in a arena with only you there.

Mitigated? Nothing is mitigated. The main argument on the last page was "time restricted players would enjoy arenas". They usually do not even have the hour per day to play. And who decides when this hour starts and ends? And how much of that hour will be idle time because you need to wait for a suitable opponent? This also goes directly back to Rek Seven's post I commented on above the 2 dashes. If people look for easy PVP content because they are time restricted due to RL, they will not look for real roams anymore as they are cumbersome and require effort. They can just wait after the button press and watch videos while they wait for another person to also press a button. As it currently stands, this group of people grows and grows and instead of giving in to their wrong expectations, it is more important to re-educate them again into being proper players and a proper part of this game that lives from them flying around in space and be available to be challenged there.

it happens once a year and requires magic teleportation by devs. Its only for a select few, not the wider player base and lasts a finite amount of time, you have to play plex to enter etc etc

What is being asked for here is arena's that can be stop/started constantly. Can be handed out or accessed by everyone etc etc.

The AT is an entirely different kettle of fish that is being asked here. If i want to hunt someone who plays in the AT i can for roughly 50 weeks of the year.



^^

edit-

The AT actually goes to show the separation between real PvP and arena PvP. Its widely known that ships and equipment that works well in an arena might not work anywhere near as well in the sandbox.

The AT while it has its moments is on the whole unrealistic, overly exclusive and pointless. The end result has more often than not been a foregone conclusion and the collusion and outright cheating that has occurred in the past has often been its main redeeming feature.

Honestly having matches gate crashed by random gangs would be an improvement.

Again you fail to understand what sand box actually means yet use it as your sole argument against this... Stations stop you from engaging your target but they don't stop this from being a sandbox game.

It's reasonable to assume that there would be a waiting period between matches where you and attack your target... I'm tired of people who make silly assumptions to base their arguments...

At the end of the day I don't really care. I would love to see how i shape up competing against other players but I have the arenas in star citizen and elite dangerous to give me my arena fix... I'm sure eve will keep gaining subscriptions and retaining new players by being the same game it has always been.

Statistics
https://youtu.be/A92Ge2S8M1Y?t=2m57s

On Motivation
https://youtu.be/sbHqFgn4SOw?t=10m45s

So, the rebuttal, beyond asking for a source, is that having an arena seems less valid because the game hasn't ever had one?


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6040289#post6040289 -- just a few posts above that.

In bold:



No sports are deemed as such, because their value is entertainment.

On other points, the compromise remains that the arena could plausibly only be open at specific intervals. An obvious option is after restart, where the PCU is low. Another is that they rotate.

Don't call it "real PVP" in this case. You do not need to consider Dscan in an arena, you do not need to consider gate activity or on grid action (like new people arriving, combatants leaving, your people dying, position of your people or yourself in relation to new people coming in, and so on) in an arena where there is no such things. You would teach them the wrong basics. If people get to expect (and they will get there, inevitably) that no-one can interfere with them, they will have a bad surprise in real, open-world PVP. And, as much as people currently hate Troll ceptors and do not fight them or cannot because they run, people will not want to PVP in the open-world because it circumstances are not under their control and change without them being able to do something against this. Thus, they will stick to the arenas and even less people are left for true/real PVP.
Therefore, it is not plausible for new players (in particular those of the current, rotten and spoiled gamer generation) to hop out of arenas as this would require more effort and would be less convenient.

I am not not supporting play on the main server. That is why I said it is best done in E-Uni or RVB. What I say is that there are things that you can explain or show case better on the test server because you do not have the financial aspect there that constraint wallets impose on the real server. This could be particularly interesting for younger, less financially apt pilots; however, I do not say anywhere that it is the only and most suitable way to teach people.
Judging by your bold text and your false focus on this point, am I right in assuming that you would want the material wasted in arenas to be free of charge? Because it sounds like that when you try to compare a learning simulation envelope on Sisi to real fights with real losses.

Because people are lazy. People are convenience driven. They rather want things given to them instead of making things on their own. See above for my description of this kind of players. Or because people do not want to compete in a tournament on a regular basis because, for instance, it is not the kind of PVP they search for. Nevertheless, the opportunity is there. To tell the truth, I find it particularly interesting that CFC does not do this more regularly. One corp had this Theomachy event recently, but that's about it. It just shows that people do not seem to be interested in it. Or that people are not willing to put up with the organization effort and just want things handed to them like in a theme park.

It is skillful, but only so much. There are no "even grounds" in the real PVP. There is always a disadvantage stacked against you or your opponent. There are no limitations on what can happen to you or your opponent as opposed to arenas.

Yes? Have I not described more than enough casual activities on TQ? If not, please show me what I have forgotten. I think I have been very thorough with my examples, both in this thread as well as the Save Newbs thread.

Well, welcome to the sandbox. And you want to make it even less likely to happen by taking away even more people from the open world and stuff them in arenas. Good that you see it, too. I also do not see where I said it is bound to happen often. The trailer showcases what the sandbox is capable of doing if you use it. The outcome of your actions, however, depend on interaction with other players and the chance to start interaction with them. Arenas take a lot away from that.

*not arguing about #8 as there is nothing to argue about provided*

It is not successful. At all. if you get matched with a superior player in a Cruiser while you are in your T1 frigate, this is not successful (and this is, kind of, what is currently happening in WOT/W). Furthermore, it is also not possible to take player experience into account in match making and this is a huge part of what defines EVE. I do not consider myself a good solo PVPer, but I would have no problem shredding a person even if we had the same fit for our ships. Over and over. Other people would just create new chars on their accounts (not new accounts, just new chars on the existing accounts) to be able to play against players of their "weight class" but outperform them in fact with their vast personal skills. This is only one of the many problems with arenas in EVE.
It contradicts a little bit with my previous statement about fair fights, however, people would expect fair fights in these arenas. Fights where they are in equal footing with their opponent. This is hardly doable in EVE.

There are no SP limits in RVB and sure as hell not in E-Uni who are specifically set up to educate new players (and old players alike). They also have a very active and engaged community which involves people into a social environment if they so wish. What CCP needs to do is to make people more aware of these entities and funnel (at least suggest this to players) them into these from starter corps instead of removing SP or attributes or something.
Well, this is what EVE is. Try to change this way of thinking. Make it your purpose to set up a nice weekly event/tournament and make people to want to participate in it rather than ruin it. Too hard? Shame, isn't it?

I am clearly typing way too much...