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Dev Blog: Next set of Sov and Capital Movement Iterations

First post First post
Author
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#281 - 2015-09-15 14:27:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Querns wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Thanks for giving me some perspective.

I still think null sec will be become better if it remains difficult for capital fleets to be deployed in different regions. I don't think making things easy for your more nomadic groups like PL, who exist for nice kill mails and have more capitals than they know what to do with, are good for the game.

By penalizing players for moving around all the time, you reward the players that invest in and develop certain regions. Is making war deployment a trivial and fun thing you can do every weekend really good for the game?

The changes don't make it faster to travel. Gate travel is still the superior option.


No i didn't say it did. I said the reduction in fatigue cap will allow groups like yourself to jump around the map getting involved in a new war or 3rd partying on fights every weekend.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#282 - 2015-09-15 15:04:43 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Querns wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Thanks for giving me some perspective.

I still think null sec will be become better if it remains difficult for capital fleets to be deployed in different regions. I don't think making things easy for your more nomadic groups like PL, who exist for nice kill mails and have more capitals than they know what to do with, are good for the game.

By penalizing players for moving around all the time, you reward the players that invest in and develop certain regions. Is making war deployment a trivial and fun thing you can do every weekend really good for the game?

The changes don't make it faster to travel. Gate travel is still the superior option.


No i didn't say it did. I said the reduction in fatigue cap will allow groups like yourself to jump around the map getting involved in a new war or 3rd partying on fights every weekend.

Yes, and my point is if we wanted to do this, we would be doing it via gate travel, and not jumping. What part of "jumping is slower than gate travel for the distances we're talking about" am I failing to impress? Lowering the max fatigue cap doesn't affect our ability to wage war or third party.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#283 - 2015-09-15 15:49:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Querns wrote:

Yes, and my point is if we wanted to do this, we would be doing it via gate travel, and not jumping. What part of "jumping is slower than gate travel for the distances we're talking about" am I failing to impress? Lowering the max fatigue cap doesn't affect our ability to wage war or third party.


You are choosing to ignore the fact that gate travel is a huge risk. I don't disagree with the fact that using gates for long range deployments would be quicker but it has nothing to do with the issue. You don't need to worry about "quickness" for a war that is planned weeks in advance... Especially if you are a super alt with nothing but time on your hands.

Of course if doesn't affect your ability to wage ware but it penalizes you for using a safe means of travel to strategically position yourself.

Either way i guess we'll see how it turns out but, to me, it feel like weak backpedaling by ccp.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#284 - 2015-09-15 16:18:22 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Team Five 0 wrote:
An unattended capture node event will self-complete in < 196 minutes

Do you even sov?
Let me explain how typically a real sov war goes.
First, there are skirmishes - roamings and BO drops. Opponents try each other.
Then, someone says "looks like we can take this moon/system/region, so let's do it". They reinforce it, and if timer is right - opposing forces come and clush in those furious battles that are reported on TMC and EN24.
After a while, one side realizes they cannot win this war. This is the time they unleash the most powerful weapon out there. That is not a thousand of Megathrons, not a wreaking ball, not even a full fleet of titans. It's weaponized boredom.

Now if you set regen time to 196 minutes, you bring this weapon to the whole new level. Works as follows:
1. Set vuln window at 4 am for attacker (doesnt matter what time it is for defender).
2. Never show for capture event.
3. Boom - headshot! War stopped.

Passive regen is a good thing. But it should take at least 24 hours.


A 3 hour window of attack is far longer than we used to have for taking out POS and stations.
Eris Tsasa
Fweddit
Free Range Chikuns
#285 - 2015-09-15 16:18:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Eris Tsasa
Rek Seven wrote:
Querns wrote:

Yes, and my point is if we wanted to do this, we would be doing it via gate travel, and not jumping. What part of "jumping is slower than gate travel for the distances we're talking about" am I failing to impress? Lowering the max fatigue cap doesn't affect our ability to wage war or third party.


You are choosing to ignore the fact that gate travel is a huge risk. I don't disagree with the fact that using gates for long range deployments would be quicker but it has nothing to do with the issue. You don't need to worry about "quickness" for a war that is planned weeks in advance... Especially if you are a super alt with nothing but time on your hands.

Of course if doesn't affect your ability to wage ware but it penalizes you for using a safe means of travel to strategically position yourself.

Either way i guess we'll see how it turns out but, to me, it feel like weak backpedaling by ccp.



Gate travel isn't that much of a risk when moving supers/titans. I mean, at that point generally there's back up and you have the option to jump away. When you jump somewhere, if you're caught then, you're low on cap and have a jump timer. That's more risky and scary than gate travel.

In the end, Eve is still a game. A 30 day timer keeping you from playing in any way is less fun in a game type way and more job like.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#286 - 2015-09-15 16:27:58 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Querns wrote:

Yes, and my point is if we wanted to do this, we would be doing it via gate travel, and not jumping. What part of "jumping is slower than gate travel for the distances we're talking about" am I failing to impress? Lowering the max fatigue cap doesn't affect our ability to wage war or third party.


You are choosing to ignore the fact that gate travel is a huge risk. I don't disagree with the fact that using gates for long range deployments would be quicker but it has nothing to do with the issue. You don't need to worry about "quickness" for a war that is planned weeks in advance... Especially if you are a super alt with nothing but time on your hands.

Of course if doesn't affect your ability to wage ware but it penalizes you for using a safe means of travel to strategically position yourself.

Either way i guess we'll see how it turns out but, to me, it feel like weak backpedaling by ccp.

When you're a part of the group with the most supercapitals in the game, it's not a risk at all. You move in groups and fit a cyno. I bought my supercapital after Phoebe, I go on almost every supercapital op we have, and I have not as of yet needed to refuel. Jumping is just not used that much in TYOOL 2015.

You could argue that smaller groups lack this option, but since your concern is about the largest groups, that argument is invalid.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#287 - 2015-09-15 17:54:25 UTC
And now sov warfare is officially over and sov rolling starts.

Go to hell CCP with your rubber spine.
You just had to go and cave in to gewn tears, didn't you?
So usually, so habitually, so despite any sensible opinion.

The interceptor change is unacceptable.

#unsubbing
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#288 - 2015-09-15 18:38:07 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:

#unsubbing

No follow-through.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#289 - 2015-09-15 18:41:54 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
And now sov warfare is officially over and sov rolling starts.

Go to hell CCP with your rubber spine.
You just had to go and cave in to gewn tears, didn't you?
So usually, so habitually, so despite any sensible opinion.

The interceptor change is unacceptable.

#unsubbing

The Pator Tech School sov dream is over.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Harry Saq
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#290 - 2015-09-15 18:41:56 UTC
Querns wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:

#unsubbing

No follow-through.

I think we have had overload on "can I has yer stuffs"...surprised we couldn't even muster one here ;)
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#291 - 2015-09-15 19:20:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Querns wrote:
You could argue that smaller groups lack this option, but since your concern is about the largest groups, that argument is invalid.


No, that is on the opposite end of the spectrum and is therefore also what i'm concerned about if you read between the lines of my comments.

But anyway, i've voiced my opinion for what little it's worth and i'll move on...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#292 - 2015-09-15 19:28:31 UTC
Harry Saq wrote:
Querns wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:

#unsubbing

No follow-through.

I think we have had overload on "can I has yer stuffs"...surprised we couldn't even muster one here ;)


He only has interceptors anyway.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#293 - 2015-09-15 22:12:21 UTC
Querns wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Key words "back in the day", that was before fatigue stopped your fleet moving more than once every 28 mins (X 3 or 4 to get to the target system - forget it)
Yes Blops can be done pretty safely but who wants to spend a week moving a small fleet to a target area, only to find you can't do what you came for because the locals saw you coming 3 days ago and are waiting for you or just stay docked.

Fatigue didn't somehow make it less safe. It's still a perfectly valid way to conduct business. Hell, most of the scant bits of PVP that do slip through our net in Deklein consist of ratters getting dropped on by bombers.

You might want to look at lossmails for you space before you go making unfounded accusations - I did. I think it was about 1 in 50 for the last 6 months or 4 ships lost to bombers.

That aside, I was discussing attacking space not players,it is easy for bombers or Blops to pick off 1 player at a time. It is a very different thing again to try and use those same ships to take space.
And as has been pointed out, a few well placed bubble camps makes Imperium Space all but invulnerable.

Discussion was about entosing systems (viable alternative to ceptors) not ratters or miners getting ganked.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#294 - 2015-09-15 22:51:09 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Querns wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Key words "back in the day", that was before fatigue stopped your fleet moving more than once every 28 mins (X 3 or 4 to get to the target system - forget it)
Yes Blops can be done pretty safely but who wants to spend a week moving a small fleet to a target area, only to find you can't do what you came for because the locals saw you coming 3 days ago and are waiting for you or just stay docked.

Fatigue didn't somehow make it less safe. It's still a perfectly valid way to conduct business. Hell, most of the scant bits of PVP that do slip through our net in Deklein consist of ratters getting dropped on by bombers.

You might want to look at lossmails for you space before you go making unfounded accusations - I did. I think it was about 1 in 50 for the last 6 months or 4 ships lost to bombers.

That aside, I was discussing attacking space not players,it is easy for bombers or Blops to pick off 1 player at a time. It is a very different thing again to try and use those same ships to take space.
And as has been pointed out, a few well placed bubble camps makes Imperium Space all but invulnerable.

Discussion was about entosing systems (viable alternative to ceptors) not ratters or miners getting ganked.

Bombers are not the only ships that can catch a blops bridge. More specifically, strategic cruisers can.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#295 - 2015-09-16 00:04:21 UTC
I still think that the jump range on non-combat ships needs to be rolled back to the old range of I believe it was 10 LY.

If you want null markets to be active and encourage combat people need to be able to get supplies moved around. I've completely stopped moving stuff since the changes. Things that used to be able to be done in one jump now take sometimes 3 or 4 jumps or even more.

That cutting in half did way more than double the amount of jumps. That much repositioning of cyno alts takes me longer than it does for the fatigue to go away. Then I have to do it all again on the way back up.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#296 - 2015-09-16 02:17:32 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
I still think that the jump range on non-combat ships needs to be rolled back to the old range of I believe it was 10 LY.

If you want null markets to be active and encourage combat people need to be able to get supplies moved around. I've completely stopped moving stuff since the changes. Things that used to be able to be done in one jump now take sometimes 3 or 4 jumps or even more.

That cutting in half did way more than double the amount of jumps. That much repositioning of cyno alts takes me longer than it does for the fatigue to go away. Then I have to do it all again on the way back up.

I agree, non-combat ships such as the Rhea should have a 10LY jump range.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#297 - 2015-09-16 04:20:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Team Five 0 wrote:
An unattended capture node event will self-complete in < 196 minutes

Do you even sov?
Let me explain how typically a real sov war goes.
First, there are skirmishes - roamings and BO drops. Opponents try each other.
Then, someone says "looks like we can take this moon/system/region, so let's do it". They reinforce it, and if timer is right - opposing forces come and clush in those furious battles that are reported on TMC and EN24.
After a while, one side realizes they cannot win this war. This is the time they unleash the most powerful weapon out there. That is not a thousand of Megathrons, not a wreaking ball, not even a full fleet of titans. It's weaponized boredom.

Now if you set regen time to 196 minutes, you bring this weapon to the whole new level. Works as follows:
1. Set vuln window at 4 am for attacker (doesnt matter what time it is for defender).
2. Never show for capture event.
3. Boom - headshot! War stopped.

Passive regen is a good thing. But it should take at least 24 hours.


A 3 hour window of attack is far longer than we used to have for taking out POS and stations.

I genuinely dont understand what you say, as passive regen was about 9 hours for sov structures and 6 hours for POS, iirc. And it was enough pita even then.
You know, I can live with this - you dont need to go on that "HTFU" pitch. But the stated goal of the changes was "to ensure the process of taking sov is as fun as possible" and instead boredom is getting buffed, so I just wander - what's happening?
marly cortez
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#298 - 2015-09-16 07:23:26 UTC
Having not really understood the negative effects of these Sov changes on player behavior CCP went ahead and introduced them into the game turning the maintenance of Sov from one of active player content generation to one of it being a 'JOB' wtf were you thinking would happen, Players would salivate at the idea of logging in with the sole intention of rushing from system to system grinding indexes to gain just a few minutes lee way when some griefer rocks up and starts up his entosis unit,

To date apart from noting the fact that a mail is generated it cause little of no interest..... 'IT GOT OLD VERY QUICKLY' as many said it would. It was a badly thought out concept on day one, it's got no better since then.

Humanity is the thin veneer that remains after you remove the baffled chimp.

Suede
State War Academy
Caldari State
#299 - 2015-09-16 12:33:54 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
I still think that the jump range on non-combat ships needs to be rolled back to the old range of I believe it was 10 LY.

If you want null markets to be active and encourage combat people need to be able to get supplies moved around. I've completely stopped moving stuff since the changes. Things that used to be able to be done in one jump now take sometimes 3 or 4 jumps or even more.

That cutting in half did way more than double the amount of jumps. That much repositioning of cyno alts takes me longer than it does for the fatigue to go away. Then I have to do it all again on the way back up.


when read this I just think about CCP fozzieSOV update they must been playing it in there Coffee break

Capture the flag
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_the_flag

Capture the flag, commonly abbreviated as CTF, is a traditional outdoor game where two teams each have a flag (or other marker) and the object is to capture the other team's flag, located at the team's "base," and bring it safely back to their own base. Enemy players can be "tagged" by players in their home territory; these players are then, depending on the agreed rules, out of the game, members of the opposite team, sent back to their own territory, frozen in place until freed by a member of their own team, or "in jail."

Capture the Flag requires a playing field of some sort. Whether indoor or outdoor, the field is divided into two clearly designated halves, known as territories. Players form two teams, one for each territory. Each side has a "flag" which is most often a piece of fabric, but can be any object small enough to be easily carried by a person (night time games might use flashlights, glowsticks or lanterns as the "flags"). It is also suggested that teams wear dark colors at night time to increase the difficulty of the opponents to see them. If one team has the opposing team's flag on their territory they may be tagged because they have the opposing team's flag.

The objective of the game is for players to make their way into the opposing team's territory, grab the flag and return with it to their own territory without being tagged. The flag is defended mainly by tagging opposing players who attempt to take it. Within their own territory players are "safe", meaning that they cannot be tagged by opposing players. Once they cross in to the opposing team's territory they are vulnerable.

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#300 - 2015-09-16 13:43:50 UTC
I'm generally not a fan of arbitrary limits and special rules, but in the case of the "no entosis 'Ceptors" change it makes sense. They wanted to limit entosis 'Ceptors, not all entosis frigates, and this is pretty much the only way to do it. Kudos to CCP for trying to fix a specific problem with a scalpel (or a band aid depending on your point of view) instead of a chainsaw.


Whether you think limiting entosis 'Ceptors is a good thing is an entirely different story. I'm on the fence myself.


Also, a big thank you to CCP for deciding to reign in the Jump Fatigue cap to 5 days instead of 30. This will still limit how much capital pilots can do over a day or two without them having to worry about utterly hamstringing themselves if they push their fatigue too far. Waiting until next weekend is a far more appealing option than waiting until next month.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs