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Best ship(s) for optimal L4 ISK?
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Paranoid Loyd
#61 - 2015-09-15 00:26:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Anize Oramara wrote:
No

Wat? You didn't write this?
Anize Oramara wrote:

Strange, My Mach seems to be doing 1200 at 74km Fine.

or this?
Anize Oramara wrote:
I'm getting 1399 dps at 82.2km


I'm not saying the Mach is bad, I'm saying you are overstating numbers to make your point.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2015-09-15 00:30:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Anize Oramara wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
And what does the graph say your DPS is at 74km? That's what was being questioned as that was your original claim.

Also as Tyberius pointed out, if you are dropping those sentries you are losing considerable time to pick them back up so I wouldn't include those in your overstated DPS either.


No

1000 - 1200 dps at 50km

Altair Taurus wrote:
1000-1200 DPS at 50km

- all Marauders - I am not sure
- Rattlesnake - yes!
- autocannon Machariel cannot project such damage at 50 km, I believe
- rail Vindicator - yes, especially with help of 4 sentry drones
- Nightmare - probably can do that but it is rather hard DPS level to achieve
- sentry Dominix - ?
- Navy Dominix - ?
- Typhoon Fleet Issue - ?


? - I do not know those boats enough


(Emphasis mine)
Plugged it into a fitting tool and can confirm with drones, +5% gunnery and large projectile implants and a 400sig target it projects ~1000dps to 50km, movement notwithstanding. Being with drones though still leaves that to be considered.


Though as pointed out above, those weren't the original claims challenged.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#63 - 2015-09-15 00:34:58 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
And what does the graph say your DPS is at 74km? That's what was being questioned as that was your original claim.

Also as Tyberius pointed out, if you are dropping those sentries you are losing considerable time to pick them back up so I wouldn't include those in your overstated DPS either.


No

1000 - 1200 dps at 50km

Altair Taurus wrote:
1000-1200 DPS at 50km

- all Marauders - I am not sure
- Rattlesnake - yes!
- autocannon Machariel cannot project such damage at 50 km, I believe
- rail Vindicator - yes, especially with help of 4 sentry drones
- Nightmare - probably can do that but it is rather hard DPS level to achieve
- sentry Dominix - ?
- Navy Dominix - ?
- Typhoon Fleet Issue - ?


? - I do not know those boats enough


(Emphasis mine)
Plugged it into a fitting tool and can confirm with drones, +5% gunnery and large projectile implants and a 400sig target it projects ~1000dps to 50km, movement notwithstanding. Being with drones though still leaves that to be considered.


Though as pointed out above, those weren't the original claims challenged.

Roll
Mach is still the best ship for optimal L4 ISK. No matter how much you guys move the goal posts to try and assert otherwise.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2015-09-15 00:36:29 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
...
Yes a paladin can get something like 70km optimal but is a) locked into em/therm b) to get that range is locked into place for 5min and c) is less than 1200dp if scorch or has worse tracking than ACs if Tachs...

Bastion is 60 sec, not 5 min, and the paladin can still have a ~64km optimal with INMF + Tachs while mobile (more if range rigged). Realistically the mach wins for mobility and damage selection but range wise is a non competitor.

Right, was thinking about seige :P

Tachs have far worse tracking, especially when moving. AND if you're rigging for range you're losing out on warp speed, again losing even more isk/h to Mach.

Also when the mission calls for moving around, you use Hammers (50 less dps than sentries)

Keep trying guys, I'm sure you'll find something eventually.

What am I looking for? Or did you miss "Realistically the mach wins for mobility and damage selection?" The claim I found dubious was "Strange, My Mach seems to be doing 1200 at 74km Fine" which you yourself have come back later stating it isn't the case.

The other claim I made was that the mach wasn't a range queen, which you've yet to even refute in any reasonable manner. So who's fishing here?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2015-09-15 00:37:14 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Roll
Mach is still the best ship for optimal L4 ISK. No matter how much you guys move the goal posts to try and assert otherwise.
Roll We're not claiming otherwise. You seem to be missing that.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#66 - 2015-09-15 00:38:00 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
...
Yes a paladin can get something like 70km optimal but is a) locked into em/therm b) to get that range is locked into place for 5min and c) is less than 1200dp if scorch or has worse tracking than ACs if Tachs...

Bastion is 60 sec, not 5 min, and the paladin can still have a ~64km optimal with INMF + Tachs while mobile (more if range rigged). Realistically the mach wins for mobility and damage selection but range wise is a non competitor.

Right, was thinking about seige :P

Tachs have far worse tracking, especially when moving. AND if you're rigging for range you're losing out on warp speed, again losing even more isk/h to Mach.

Also when the mission calls for moving around, you use Hammers (50 less dps than sentries)

Keep trying guys, I'm sure you'll find something eventually.

What am I looking for? Or did you miss "Realistically the mach wins for mobility and damage selection?" The claim I found dubious was "Strange, My Mach seems to be doing 1200 at 74km Fine" which you yourself have come back later stating it isn't the case.

The other claim I made was that the mach wasn't a range queen, which you've yet to even refute in any reasonable manner. So who's fishing here?

Ok so you agree Mach is the Best ship for optimal L4 ISK as per the original question? That's all that matters.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Paranoid Loyd
#67 - 2015-09-15 00:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Like I said, I'm not arguing the Mach is not the best. I am arguing that your numbers are bloated and therefore your argument is weakened by your overstatement.

Also, the only goalpost moving going on is that which you are doing.

Anize Oramara wrote:
That's all that matters.

If the only point to this conversation is to be right then sure, but this forum is read by a lot of people who don't have nearly as much knowledge as you or I. Overstating your argument for the purpose of winning is counterproductive.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#68 - 2015-09-15 00:38:45 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Roll
Mach is still the best ship for optimal L4 ISK. No matter how much you guys move the goal posts to try and assert otherwise.
Roll We're not claiming otherwise. You seem to be missing that.

Then we're just arguing for the sake of arguing. No point in that.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2015-09-15 00:40:28 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Roll
Mach is still the best ship for optimal L4 ISK. No matter how much you guys move the goal posts to try and assert otherwise.
Roll We're not claiming otherwise. You seem to be missing that.

Then we're just arguing for the sake of arguing. No point in that.

For the sake of arguing, no. More for the sake of a more realistic presentation of the ship that still leaves it solidly on top of the blitzing pile.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#70 - 2015-09-15 02:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Altair Taurus wrote:
Arthur Alhaken: Did you mean blitzing or full clear L4 missions?

Blitzing.

Anize Oramara wrote:
Marauders don't have that option when in bastion and some NPCs actually orbit at 40-50km as well.

With 120km+ range, Golems don't need that option. Just saying...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
The Bigpuns
United Standings Improvement Agency
#71 - 2015-09-15 07:46:23 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Roll
Mach is still the best ship for optimal L4 ISK. No matter how much you guys move the goal posts to try and assert otherwise.
Roll We're not claiming otherwise. You seem to be missing that.

Then we're just arguing for the sake of arguing. No point in that.


It is widely accepted that mach is best blitzer. Doesn't work for everyone, but for people who are good at blitzing.

But you made claims which just don't hold up, and then accused people of moving the goalposts when you were challenged on it. AC Mach does not apply damage at all well at those ranges, you're not mobile if you have sentries, and damage is only semi selectable (eg. EMP ammo still does about a quarter of damage as exp/kin). Real world usage is a lot different to even the damage graphs in eft, unless you really get serious with it.

Any mission with ewar also seriously gimps the mach until you can clear the offending ships, something else marauders don't worry about.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#72 - 2015-09-15 08:48:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
I... have to admit defeat. I claimed 1200 dps at 74km. I *sould* have said 1183 dps at 74km without the use of sentries (1145 with) and still using selectable damage (not 100% 1 type damage but hay, the poor missile boats have to have *something* going for them Pirate ). I'm even still doing 7.4 au/sec too! I can probably get well over 1200 dps at 74km If I am willing to drop more warp speed but that would defeat the purpose of the Mach after all.

Truly I am disgraced Roll

On the up side your anality has spurred me to put together a rather interesting build that I think I'll try at some point. It'll definitely be something different that's for sure and has a very real possibility of being better than the fit I'm running currently in some missions. I wonder if you'll figure the fit out. regardless at this point you'll just end up looking petty Blink

For the optimal ship you need to strike the balance between amazing dps with the right amount of projection and application on an agile hull able to engage all ship sizes and be fast in warp. There is only one ship that meets or surpasses every other ship on all the marks.

ps. none of the blitz missions have ewar that hampers the Mach. And no, ewar is not what makes any of the non blitzing missions 'unblitzable', at least not where I mission.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2015-09-15 11:04:34 UTC
I'm struggling to find any mach fit that does 1k+ dps at that range and also warps at that speed.

Care to share?

Art of Explosions
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#74 - 2015-09-15 11:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
This is the fit that (nearly) lives up to my claim. I'd probably make a slight change here and there but the build is sound if a bit excessive for my tastes.

[Machariel, New Setup 1]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Core C-Type 500MN Microwarpdrive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Ancillary Current Router II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II

Hobgoblin II x5
Gecko x2

Note: 4 Ogre IIs give near identical dps numbers so no need to run Geckos and you can get pure damage selection for your drones at least. Implants: 6% gun implants and high-grade ascendancy.

Personally I wouldn't run with quite that much isk in my head and I'd take the 50 or so dps hit with a slightly modified fit (before all the crying about gank magnet pops up) but isk wise the fit is relatively tame.

Edit: Oh and fun fact: if you switch TCs to tracking scripts, because TCs are awesome that way, you get as good or way better tracking than tachs depending on the number you switch over. God I love TCs so much.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2015-09-15 12:23:01 UTC
So what exactly is the point in hitting out to 70km when you are using heavy drones?

Art of Explosions
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#76 - 2015-09-15 12:49:11 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
So what exactly is the point in hitting out to 70km when you are using heavy drones?

I put that fit together because people claimed it couldn't be done and to address 'issues' people had with the other fits.

Not that I use drones all that much while blitzing anyways. Sentries for some missions are great but I can think of at least 2, maybe 3 blitz missions where a set of heavy drones will outperform sentries. Some missions I don't bother launching drones because it wont make a noticeable difference.

The AC Mach with Curators and hobs is a nice jack of all traits build for blitzing if you want to be slightly more lazy. If you want to get that extra bit of isk you can do things like ID the missions where the arty mach with sentries or AC mach with Heavies will outperform your normal build and adapt your fit as needed. On easy example is Scarlet where the arty mach will handily outperform the AC Mach. That is also a mission where there is 0 point in launching drones at all. Quake + Wardens might outperform the AC mach in Gone Bezerk come to think of it and there might be a few more.

Depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
The Bigpuns
United Standings Improvement Agency
#77 - 2015-09-15 14:26:54 UTC
Wow, you went all out to prove a non-point there, dincha.

AC fit wasn't doing what you said it could, so you switched to arty. Not in itself a terrible thing, but a very different beast. For some missions, arty very much makes sense, but gone berserk is not one of them.

You'd still be better off not trying to include drone dps in your figures just to make it look better. Ogre II's do about 6% more damage than the geckos iirc, but don't apply anywhere near as much and again, you will need to be swapping them out based on mission rats.

Look, no-one is disagreeing about the mach being good at what it does. But your arguments don't hold up to real life. Call it anality if you like, but you can't make a mach that does everything the best.
Altair Taurus
#78 - 2015-09-15 14:32:19 UTC
Especially 1399 dps at 82,2 km! Blink
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2015-09-15 14:48:12 UTC
Oh and FYI, that fit you posted only JUST breaks 1k dps at 83km using augmented Ogres.

Art of Explosions
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#80 - 2015-09-15 15:17:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
The Bigpuns wrote:
Wow, you went all out to prove a non-point there, dincha.

Hahahah gets all srz business and whines and types a nice big fat post about me 'lying', when I prove him wrong is all like, 'whatever bruh, it's not like i r serious bruh, relax bruh'

What a hack.

Quote:
Oh and FYI, that fit you posted only JUST breaks 1k dps at 83km using augmented Ogres.

Weee there goes the goalposts again.

The forum PvP is realPirate

Besides I already explained what I meant with my numbers on the PREVIOUS page. shows how well you guys read (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6037419#post6037419)

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3