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Best ship(s) for optimal L4 ISK?
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Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#41 - 2015-09-14 21:10:11 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Again, no they can not post identical isk/h numbers simply because majority of time spent blitzing lv4 missions is spent in warp.

Is it really?
How about the pilot that is willing to decline any missions that is more than 1 jump away from hub. In this case the speed advantage of the Mach is reduced to near irrelevance when compared to the increased DPS that is possible by flying a Marauder which can easliy greater DPS numbers, fit some speed mods and still have a better tank than the Mach.

I know for a fact that there are some level 4 missions that cannot be tanked by a Mach based on fit and a warp out is required. Given a player that will not refuse these missions because they do not want to suffer the standings loss and your ISK / LP per hour have just taken a huge hit.

Given a very narrow set of missions that are accepted the Paladin can easily beat a Mach in ISK / LP per hour for a blitzer. Again the Marauders inherent tanking advantages allow the pilot the flexibility to better tailor the ship to his specific desires and have more DPS and greater tank with fit room left over to minimze the speed differentials.

All of these and many more are situations where there are ships that can and do beat the Mach for ISK / LP per hour and ALL of these are based solely on player preferences.

As I stated and it is true even if you refuse to accept it.
Once a debate such as this moves from the clinical world of paper numbers and into the real world of players in the game there is no such thing as "the best ship".

1. In a mach I decline missions more than 1 jump (except for dread pirate scarlet)
2. most ships don't have a dps advantage on a mach, and when they do there are usually limiting factors that put the mach ahead.
3. please go ahead and name these untankable missions that machs have to warp out of
4. how did we go from ultra selective nothing more than 1 jump, to can't decline a hard mission because it has a good payout?
5. I imagine a paladin would be better than a mach at blitzing a blood/sansha blockade, that's one mission in the pool, I should probably test blitzing it.
6. can I have some of whatever you are smoking?

if you are going to keep making these claims start posting numbers.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#42 - 2015-09-14 21:39:54 UTC
Bar none/hands down the best ship for optimal L4 ISK is not a Machariel. It's not a Marauder, either - it's one of the various Burner fits. So it sounds like the only criteria for the actual non-Burner ship to generate said Burner missions is that it have a relatively decent warp speed (an insane one isn't needed if we're talking one jump out) and can tank enough DPS to accomplish the mission objectives. Whether you go heavier or lighter on tank, ultimately it sounds like you're going to want 60km+ range and somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1000-1200 dps.

So the Machariel fits the bill. Marauders definitely fit the bill. Even ships like the Rattlesnake, Barghest and rail Vindicator probably fit the bill. When it comes down to the actual ISK/hour, I think other factors come into play - not the least of which is luck in terms of potential mission draws. In the grand scheme of things, if a player comes really close to maximizing the ISK/hour ratio in a ship that he enjoys flying in - what's the big deal? Who's to say that this is necessarily the ship and not the player.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Altair Taurus
#43 - 2015-09-14 21:51:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
1000-1200 DPS at 50km

- all Marauders - I am not sure
- Rattlesnake - yes!
- autocannon Machariel cannot project such damage at 50 km, I believe
- rail Vindicator - yes, especially with help of 4 sentry drones
- Nightmare - probably can do that but it is rather hard DPS level to achieve
- sentry Dominix - ?
- Navy Dominix - ?
- Typhoon Fleet Issue - ?


? - I do not know those boats enough
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#44 - 2015-09-14 22:11:45 UTC
Altair Taurus wrote:
1000-1200 DPS at 50km

- all Marauders - I am not sure
- Rattlesnake - yes!
- autocannon Machariel cannot project such damage at 50 km, I believe
- rail Vindicator - yes, especially with help of 4 sentry drones
- Nightmare - probably can do that but it is rather hard DPS to achieve
- sentry Dominix - ?
- Navy Dominix - ?
- Typhoon Navy Issue - ?


Strange, My Mach seems to be doing 1200 at 74km Fine. Must be a display bug. Oh, and damage selection. Oh and I'm not rooted to the spot to get that range.

Dominix amd Navy Domi, especially after the drone amp nerf can't get even remotely close. NM gets pretty close but is locked to em/therm and that dps is nearly cut in half facing certain enemies. Rail vindie also lacks damage selection and warp speed.

Rattlesnake can get great dps yes, but is a lot slower, both in warp and in mission pocket and has lower agility, same deal with a Phoon Navy. Still they are about the only two real competitors and make decent alternatives (hence why I flew the phoon in null and have a rattlesnake in my hanger right now.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Altair Taurus
#45 - 2015-09-14 22:14:31 UTC
Do you mean only autocannons DPS at 74 km?
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#46 - 2015-09-14 22:15:10 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Bar none/hands down the best ship for optimal L4 ISK is not a Machariel. It's not a Marauder, either - it's one of the various Burner fits. So it sounds like the only criteria for the actual non-Burner ship to generate said Burner missions is that it have a relatively decent warp speed (an insane one isn't needed if we're talking one jump out) and can tank enough DPS to accomplish the mission objectives. Whether you go heavier or lighter on tank, ultimately it sounds like you're going to want 60km+ range and somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1000-1200 dps.

So the Machariel fits the bill. Marauders definitely fit the bill. Even ships like the Rattlesnake, Barghest and rail Vindicator probably fit the bill. When it comes down to the actual ISK/hour, I think other factors come into play - not the least of which is luck in terms of potential mission draws. In the grand scheme of things, if a player comes really close to maximizing the ISK/hour ratio in a ship that he enjoys flying in - what's the big deal? Who's to say that this is necessarily the ship and not the player.

There's nothing wrong with picking a different ship, all we're saying is that they admit that is is not the optimal ship. This is apparently impossible for you to admit as that means you're wrong. It's a common issue so don't worry, we get it.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Altair Taurus
#47 - 2015-09-14 22:18:12 UTC
Arthur Alhaken: Did you mean blitzing or full clear L4 missions?
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#48 - 2015-09-14 22:25:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Altair Taurus wrote:
Do you mean only autocannons DPS at 74 km?

Actually with +5 implants I'm getting 1399 dps with 82.2km falloff (T2 Curators, optimal of 52.5km) While being able to freely move about at 1598m/s with a warp speed of 7.5 (mid grades, it maxes out at 8.5 with high grade set). This is with damage selection.

Now with hail I get 1537 dps with 62km falloff. It's really only used for one mission where I MWD to a group of 6 angel BS. Pretty effective though.

Yes that's all 'on paper damage. But considering I can mover at just under 1.6km/s I dictate range and transversal, thus have as good or better application that almost any other ship. A marauder is stuck in palce so the whole 'but it's in falloff' whine is slightly more relevant there. It does not apply to the Machariel.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Altair Taurus
#49 - 2015-09-14 22:32:53 UTC
Give us your Machariel fit!
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#50 - 2015-09-14 22:40:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
[Machariel, arm ac]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Large Armor Repairer II

500MN Microwarpdrive II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II

Hobgoblin II x5
Curator II x4

Personally I'd run only 3 fleet gyros (4th is a T2) but yea, that's pretty much the fit I run.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2015-09-14 22:50:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
If you are at 1400 DPS when the bulk of your DPS has an optimal of ~5km I'm not seeing how 1200dps is projecting to 74km. What volley numbers do you get at that range?

Edit: Also, out of curiosity how often do you use the curators? How much time do you spend retrieving them? Is there some method you have to ensuring they are usefully positioned while reducing any wasted travel time?
Altair Taurus
#52 - 2015-09-14 22:57:21 UTC
I either...
Paranoid Loyd
#53 - 2015-09-14 23:00:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
He's not, he is getting approximately half that on paper and considerably less in reality.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#54 - 2015-09-14 23:54:27 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
He's not, he is getting approximately half that on paper and considerably less in reality.


I will say I'd be envious of the warp speeds, though. It's why I pass up "An Advantageous Catastrophe", not because it's an anti-Empire mission, but because it's always 3 or more jumps from agent.

And I have often been tempted to be a bit less entrenched with the same agents all the time, setting out on a long haul hopping from agent to agent, stopping only to take a bio break and rearm. As long as a battleship can make the traveling from current agent(s) to next available agent(s) and the Mach has a definite advantage in that assessment.

To bad it just cooks through your ammo surplus like it's going out of style.Roll

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#55 - 2015-09-15 00:11:23 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
He's not, he is getting approximately half that on paper and considerably less in reality.

50km it's 1060dps, it's over 1200 at 38km. It takes less than 10 seconds to get to 38km range. Marauders don't have that option when in bastion and some NPCs actually orbit at 40-50km as well.

Yes a paladin can get something like 70km optimal but is a) locked into em/therm b) to get that range is locked into place for 5min and c) is less than 1200dp if scorch or has worse tracking than ACs if Tachs.

For clearing out a mission like Blockade sansha/blood a Paladin or rattler is superior, no one is denying that. However Blockade itself is vastly inferior in terms of isk/h.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#56 - 2015-09-15 00:15:04 UTC
Altair Taurus wrote:
1000-1200 DPS at 50km

- all Marauders - I am not sure
- Rattlesnake - yes!
- autocannon Machariel cannot project such damage at 50 km, I believe
- rail Vindicator - yes, especially with help of 4 sentry drones
- Nightmare - probably can do that but it is rather hard DPS level to achieve
- sentry Dominix - ?
- Navy Dominix - ?
- Typhoon Fleet Issue - ?


? - I do not know those boats enough


Nightmare and Abaddon with tachyons (meta 4), 4 T2 heat sink, 2 locus rigs do 900 dps at 50km
Paladin with Scorch do 800+dps on 100km.

and Mach... it actually more skilled that any other BS (except Fleet Typhoon)
Paranoid Loyd
#57 - 2015-09-15 00:17:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
And what does the graph say your DPS is at 74km? That's what was being questioned as that was your original claim.

Also as Tyberius pointed out, if you are dropping those sentries you are losing considerable time to pick them back up so I wouldn't include those in your overstated DPS either.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2015-09-15 00:22:10 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
...
Yes a paladin can get something like 70km optimal but is a) locked into em/therm b) to get that range is locked into place for 5min and c) is less than 1200dp if scorch or has worse tracking than ACs if Tachs...

Bastion is 60 sec, not 5 min, and the paladin can still have a ~64km optimal with INMF + Tachs while mobile (more if range rigged). Realistically the mach wins for mobility and damage selection but range wise is a non competitor.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#59 - 2015-09-15 00:22:10 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
And what does the graph say your DPS is at 74km? That's what was being questioned as that was your original claim.

Also as Tyberius pointed out, if you are dropping those sentries you are losing considerable time to pick them back up so I wouldn't include those in your overstated DPS either.


No

1000 - 1200 dps at 50km

Altair Taurus wrote:
1000-1200 DPS at 50km

- all Marauders - I am not sure
- Rattlesnake - yes!
- autocannon Machariel cannot project such damage at 50 km, I believe
- rail Vindicator - yes, especially with help of 4 sentry drones
- Nightmare - probably can do that but it is rather hard DPS level to achieve
- sentry Dominix - ?
- Navy Dominix - ?
- Typhoon Fleet Issue - ?


? - I do not know those boats enough


(Emphasis mine)

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#60 - 2015-09-15 00:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
...
Yes a paladin can get something like 70km optimal but is a) locked into em/therm b) to get that range is locked into place for 5min and c) is less than 1200dp if scorch or has worse tracking than ACs if Tachs...

Bastion is 60 sec, not 5 min, and the paladin can still have a ~64km optimal with INMF + Tachs while mobile (more if range rigged). Realistically the mach wins for mobility and damage selection but range wise is a non competitor.

Right, was thinking about seige :P

Tachs have far worse tracking, especially when moving. AND if you're rigging for range you're losing out on warp speed, again losing even more isk/h to Mach.

Also when the mission calls for moving around, you use Hammers (50 less dps than sentries)

Keep trying guys, I'm sure you'll find something eventually.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3