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New defensive for freighters / jump freighters
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Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
#21 - 2015-09-12 14:34:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
*sigh* A freighter cannot warp upwards just like that after it got bumped. That's not how it works. Show me a video that proves otherwise.


You can warp to a target that is directly in front of your ship as you are both aligned and past minimum speed..


By "in front" you mean the direction the ship is moving or the direction it is facing?
Black Pedro
Mine.
#22 - 2015-09-12 14:44:40 UTC
Lim Hiaret wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Lim Hiaret wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why are people allergic to just flying safe and/or with friends?

if i can get a JF into jita under war dec you should be fine avoiding gankers


May I refer you to this episode of The Meta Show with Grath Telkin. About 25min in.
When a player, who is certainly pro. in this game, cannot in any way avoid a freighter loss in highsec,
than I would call this unballanced. Even with a reasonable sized guard you would not be able to get your freighter through, because CONCORD protects bumpers in highsec. The only reasonable option here is not to fly freighters in highsec. "Emergent gameplay" gets you quite far but at some point it gets retarted. Bumpers should get a suspect flag so that your guard can do something. Alternative, make it possible to wardec NPC corps and/or allow friendly fire in NPC corps.

May I refer you to CCP Falcon's comments on the subject of freighter ganking?

Why do you presume that you should be able to avoid a freighter loss in highsec? The ability to do so would seem to break the "nowhere is safe" design of the game.

So yes, the only way to 100% avoid a freighter loss in highsec is not to fly one. If you could be 100% safe, that would be unbalanced.

The vulnerability of freighters is intended. Remember the whole "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" lesson they drilled into you at capsuleer school?



I don't say you should be able to fly a freighter alone and be safe. Also I don't say ganking should be impossible. Both is valid and "death to freighters" if you like. All I say is, it is retarted that by bumping, you can hold a freighter in place until downtime and be protected by CONCORD while doing so. That is plain stupid and basically a CONCORD intervention on behalve of the bumper. The arguement "just don't fly alone" is false because it doesn't matter how many friends you have, as long as they can't shoot the bumpers freely.

Everyone can shoot bumpers. In fact the game has been designed that there is no safe space and other players can attack you anywhere. Ganking a bumping Mach is much easier than a freighter.

Friends can protect a ship and friends can prevent it from getting tackled in the first place. Bumping is a valid and CCP-approved tactic; if you want to whine about it I direct you to the appropriate thread.

Freighters are statistically one of the safest ships in highsec. Their massive EHP means there are only 2 or 3 groups that can take one down in highsec, and a single webbing alt makes them immune to almost all of that small risk. How safe do you want to make these ships?

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#23 - 2015-09-12 14:47:41 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:

No.

Why should freighters get some magical module that no one else can use with that has no other purpose than to allow a capital ship to operate without a support fleet? I don't see how that makes the game better or more interesting.

Just bring an escort like the developers intend for you to do.


I agree with the no, but are we really goingt o pretend that freighters are "capitals"? In name, yes, but they're haulers, not combat ships. Requiring support to move a freighter is just making a ****** job worse.

That said, the best tank for a freighter is not carrying enough to make ganking you profitable. Also not flying one when CODE or Goons are on a killing spree in Uedama or Niarja.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#24 - 2015-09-12 14:49:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:

There are ways to get a freighter pointed way before a webber can lock the freighter. Roll


Which spawns concord and thus spoils any gank attempt.

If you do happen to get bumped then get a fast ship out in front of the bumped freighter and simply warp the freighter to it.


Unless the freighter is bumped far enough away from Concord. Which happens all the time.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#25 - 2015-09-12 15:01:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
*sigh* A freighter cannot warp upwards just like that after it got bumped. That's not how it works. Show me a video that proves otherwise.


You can warp to a target that is directly in front of your ship as you are both aligned and past minimum speed..

You cannot warp to a ship in front of you if you go 300m/s on the vertical axis and a couple of meters on one of the horizontal axis.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
#26 - 2015-09-12 15:05:11 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Ganking a bumping Mach is much easier than a freighter.


That might be true, but you will loose your ships to CONCORD and you will get a security status hit. Unfair! (Just kidding)

Black Pedro wrote:
Friends can protect a ship and friends can prevent it from getting tackled in the first place.


We are talking about bumping, not tackling.

Black Pedro wrote:
Bumping is a valid and CCP-approved tactic; if you want to whine about it I direct you to the appropriate thread.


Fair game. Still, I don't say bumping should be impossible. It should have consequences and it should not be protected by CONCORD.

Black Pedro wrote:
...a single webbing alt makes them immune to almost all of that small risk...


Again, apparently not. A warpout alt might be working according to baltec1. But I'm not sure if that is true. If it is, it would imply that you can warp sideways and that would be even more ********.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#27 - 2015-09-12 15:18:24 UTC
Lim Hiaret wrote:
We are talking about bumping, not tackling.


Bump tackling has been a mechanic in this game from near the beginning. Capital ships have always been subject to it. It is also used all the time to keep supers and other capitals from escaping outside of highsec. Why should freighters be any different?

Lim Hiaret wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
...a single webbing alt makes them immune to almost all of that small risk...


Again, apparently not. A warpout alt might be working according to baltec1. But I'm not sure if that is true. If it is, it would imply that you can warp sideways and that would be even more ********.

You can use a warpout alt if you know what you are doing. An aware bumper might be able to counter it, but it is your best bet to escape if being bumped.

But your webbing alt should keep that from ever happening. There is literally only a few second window from when you start warp until you enter it with a webber escort (and yes, often that means you are warping sideways). Sure, you could be incredibly unlucky and a Machariel could grab you during those few seconds if you spawn right in front of the bumper, but the chance of that is so remote, and could be eliminated if you scouted the gate before jumping.

So with a webber you are 99.9+% safe. Red Frog Freight knows how to do this and they complete over 99.8+% of their contracts. Isn't that safe enough?

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Braden Fanguard
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#28 - 2015-09-12 16:05:06 UTC
Nope. Don't fly what you can't afford to loose. -1
Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
#29 - 2015-09-12 16:36:34 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Lim Hiaret wrote:
We are talking about bumping, not tackling.


Bump tackling has been a mechanic in this game from near the beginning. Capital ships have always been subject to it. It is also used all the time to keep supers and other capitals from escaping outside of highsec. Why should freighters be any different?


So it is a kind of tackling, but CONCORD is not reacting in retribution. Instead CONCORD is protecting the offender against you and your friends. Capitals are not yet allowed to highsec.
Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
#30 - 2015-09-12 16:57:02 UTC
Braden Fanguard wrote:
Nope. Don't fly what you can't afford to loose. -1


I agree, but how does that apply to this thread. OP only asked for comments on a defensive module for freighter. I only asked for CONCORD not defending attackers in highsec.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2015-09-12 17:13:10 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:

There are ways to get a freighter pointed way before a webber can lock the freighter. Roll


Which spawns concord and thus spoils any gank attempt.

If you do happen to get bumped then get a fast ship out in front of the bumped freighter and simply warp the freighter to it.


Unless the freighter is bumped far enough away from Concord. Which happens all the time.



Careful, you'll be called a filthy carebear shortly ;)
baltec1
Bat Country
The Initiative.
#32 - 2015-09-12 20:19:44 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:

There are ways to get a freighter pointed way before a webber can lock the freighter. Roll


Which spawns concord and thus spoils any gank attempt.

If you do happen to get bumped then get a fast ship out in front of the bumped freighter and simply warp the freighter to it.


Unless the freighter is bumped far enough away from Concord. Which happens all the time.


If you cant get a frigate out in front by that point you deserve to lose it.
baltec1
Bat Country
The Initiative.
#33 - 2015-09-12 20:21:15 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
*sigh* A freighter cannot warp upwards just like that after it got bumped. That's not how it works. Show me a video that proves otherwise.


You can warp to a target that is directly in front of your ship as you are both aligned and past minimum speed..

You cannot warp to a ship in front of you if you go 300m/s on the vertical axis and a couple of meters on one of the horizontal axis.


Capitals bumped out of bubbles warp instantly, this is exactly the same.
Hulk Miner
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2015-09-12 20:58:07 UTC
I feel this has swayed a long way from the original post and your argument should of been on some other thread.


I am well aware of bumping and game mechanic and also Rivr's argumentative conversations. Big smile These are not needed here.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#35 - 2015-09-12 21:43:22 UTC
Lim Hiaret wrote:
Instead CONCORD is protecting the offender against you and your friends.


Concord don't protect anyone.

Hulk Miner wrote:
I feel this has swayed a long way from the original post and your argument should of been on some other thread.

I am well aware of bumping and game mechanic and also Rivr's argumentative conversations. Big smile These are not needed here.


This is the same thread we see on a very regular basis, despite the usual attempt to cover it up in the wording of the OP. One more nerf, amirite?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Hulk Miner
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-09-13 06:59:16 UTC
OK, after a rethink on the initial idea and collecting a few dummies from the floor I have changed my OP.

To bring it in line with the ECM burst I of a super cap the module can only be used in a system with 0.4 security and below.
Ferrucio Surge
The Bag Cartel
#37 - 2015-09-13 07:17:33 UTC
Lim Hiaret wrote:
Alternative, make it possible to wardec NPC corps and/or allow friendly fire in NPC corps.

Uhh.... no.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#38 - 2015-09-13 07:21:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
baltec1 wrote:
Capitals bumped out of bubbles warp instantly, this is exactly the same.

It is not because these capitals are bumped out of the bubbles from behind in most of the cases. Freighters are bumped from above or below exactly to make it impossible for them to warp.

As said, show me a video that demonstrates what you proclaim. I am sure, Siegfried Cohenberg and Warr Akini will aid you in your attempts.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Iain Cariaba
#39 - 2015-09-13 07:48:34 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Capitals bumped out of bubbles warp instantly, this is exactly the same.

It is not because these capitals are bumped out of the bubbles from behind in most of the cases. Freighters are bumped from above or below exactly to make it impossible for them to warp.

As said, show me a video that demonstrates what you proclaim. I am sure, Siegfried Cohenberg and Warr Akini will aid you in your attempts.

Apparently you need this explained to you. If a bumping mach bumps you from below, and you are now travelling straight up at 300m/s, your direction of travel is now straight up, and your warp alt (aka your webbing alt with a MWD turned on) shoud be flying straight up so you can warp to him. Not exactly difficult to figure out... wel, for most of us anyway.
baltec1
Bat Country
The Initiative.
#40 - 2015-09-13 07:51:47 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Capitals bumped out of bubbles warp instantly, this is exactly the same.

It is not because these capitals are bumped out of the bubbles from behind in most of the cases. Freighters are bumped from above or below exactly to make it impossible for them to warp.

As said, show me a video that demonstrates what you proclaim. I am sure, Siegfried Cohenberg and Warr Akini will aid you in your attempts.


Show me a video where bumpers operate the way you think they do.