These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Next set of Sov and Capital Movement Iterations

First post First post
Author
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#81 - 2015-09-11 22:19:06 UTC
159Pinky wrote:
So, now that all gates will be bubbled to **** to prevent entosis. When will you start add a limited timer for bubbles to be in space? SO ppl at least have to put an effort in to keeping their entrances bubbled


When they put a limit on cloaks so you have to at least put in an effort to be at the keyboard for your alts.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#82 - 2015-09-11 22:20:02 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Querns wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
159Pinky wrote:
So, now that all gates will be bubbled to **** to prevent entosis. When will you start add a limited timer for bubbles to be in space? SO ppl at least have to put an effort in to keeping their entrances bubbled


The "timer" on a bubbled stargate already exists, and is directly linked to the DPS output of the ship you're trying to get through it.



That's garbage and you know it.


Again, do they not have wormholes, cynos, and nullified strategic cruisers where you live?



Last I checked, WH can't be spawned on demand, cynos can be nullified and a clear and stated objective was to not limit the field to certain hulls.

This is why I was against the direct removal of intys but in favour of an increase in align time and a lower speed cap - these would allow active alliances to prosper but prevent passive defence.

Allowing an +effectively+ passive defence of sov is too much of a swing in the other direction. Do I need to live in my space? Hell no, I need only bubble the chokes to death, a wormholer can be ignored because that hole wont be there by the time the RF rolls around and now the nodes regenerate.

It is just too much in the wrong direction - close, but not there yet.

Cynos can be nullified -- you can put a covert cyno on a covert, nullified strategic cruiser and sneak any number of people behind the dread bubble wall, then refit to a more combat-oriented configuration using mobile depots once you've arrived.

You can also shoot the bubbles. A large bubble costs 10m (20m for T2), so if you consistently blow them up, you can probably encourage the bubble havers to stop throwing money away. Anchored bubbles just aren't that big of a deal. Their defense of sovereignty is hardly meaningful at all -- at best, they slow down people hunting ratters. A sovereignty conquering force should have little issue destroying them.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#83 - 2015-09-11 22:20:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
Querns wrote:
Evelgrivion wrote:
Querns wrote:
Again, do they not have wormholes, cynos, and nullified strategic cruisers where you live?


Why would you use Tech 3s for Entosis? Any Entosis ship caught during the module cycle is basically doomed.

Alone, sure. You may need to bring a support fleet, or ante up to T2 entosis links to limit your exposure.


This is a direction that is highly favorable to Goonswarm's established modus operendi; bring as big of a death ball as possible and take advantage of superior throw weight to ensure that each objective is achieved. If that's the direction Entosis is going to go, we might as well just throw the sov wands out completely and just go back to Dominion or POS Sov.

If someone doesn't have that kind of mass, skirmish warfare is their only viable option. It would be a tragedy for that option to be lost.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#84 - 2015-09-11 22:23:54 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
Querns wrote:
Evelgrivion wrote:
Querns wrote:
Again, do they not have wormholes, cynos, and nullified strategic cruisers where you live?


Why would you use Tech 3s for Entosis? Any Entosis ship caught during the module cycle is basically doomed.

Alone, sure. You may need to bring a support fleet, or ante up to T2 entosis links to limit your exposure.


This is a direction that is highly favorable to Goonswarm's established modus operendi; bring as big of a death ball as possible and take advantage of superior throw weight to ensure that each objective is achieved. If that's the direction Entosis is going to go, we might as well just throw the sov wands out completely and just go back to Dominion or POS Sov.

If someone doesn't have that kind of mass, skirmish warfare is their only viable option. It would be a tragedy for that option to be lost.

I don't follow -- how does anything you talked about limit skirmish warfare?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2015-09-11 22:25:19 UTC
Quote limit.

Querns wrote:

Cynos can be nullified -- you can put a covert cyno on a covert, nullified strategic cruiser and sneak any number of people behind the dread bubble wall, then refit to a more combat-oriented configuration using mobile depots once you've arrived.

You can also shoot the bubbles. A large bubble costs 10m (20m for T2), so if you consistently blow them up, you can probably encourage the bubble havers to stop throwing money away. Anchored bubbles just aren't that big of a deal. Their defense of sovereignty is hardly meaningful at all -- at best, they slow down people hunting ratters. A sovereignty conquering force should have little issue destroying them.


It is still a hilarious design goal fail.

Tell me, if a minimum align time of 4s and a speed limit of 3k was enforced...what would the problem be?

You should not be able to hide behind anchorables so easily, it is every bit as big a flaw as the current model - except now it is in sov holders favour, so I guess that is ok.....?
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#86 - 2015-09-11 22:25:33 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:

It's not the speed, size, or cost of inties that is the root problem; it's the bubble immunity. .


No, it is the unholy combination of all those attributes that make them the sov troll's wet dream. They needed to die before Aegis was released.
Commander Spurty
#87 - 2015-09-11 22:33:50 UTC
I'm still a bit shocked that Entosis link isn't exactly like a Cyno, or at the very least a Siege module.

You light it and it:

A) puts up a beacon (like a cyno)
B) you're sitting there for the duration.

A+B = both very recognizable mechanics already accepted in the game.

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP

Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#88 - 2015-09-11 22:34:59 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Querns wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
159Pinky wrote:
So, now that all gates will be bubbled to **** to prevent entosis. When will you start add a limited timer for bubbles to be in space? SO ppl at least have to put an effort in to keeping their entrances bubbled


The "timer" on a bubbled stargate already exists, and is directly linked to the DPS output of the ship you're trying to get through it.



That's garbage and you know it.


Again, do they not have wormholes, cynos, and nullified strategic cruisers where you live?



Last I checked, WH can't be spawned on demand, cynos can be nullified and a clear and stated objective was to not limit the field to certain hulls.

This is why I was against the direct removal of intys but in favour of an increase in align time and a lower speed cap - these would allow active alliances to prosper but prevent passive defence.

Allowing an +effectively+ passive defence of sov is too much of a swing in the other direction. Do I need to live in my space? Hell no, I need only bubble the chokes to death, a wormholer can be ignored because that hole wont be there by the time the RF rolls around and now the nodes regenerate.

It is just too much in the wrong direction - close, but not there yet.


You realize if you come across a gate bubbled like that.. all you do is wave the magic ticket wand at a GM.. and those players who dropped all those Bubbles will feel very sorry. while you can Bubble a gate.. only X amount of bubbles may be used. Any amount of Cans/bubbles around gates that start to effect the loading of someones computers is considered bannable and an exploit. CCP has swung that magic hammer many times on players, suspending them and banning them for multiple offences.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#89 - 2015-09-11 22:36:43 UTC
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Have you considered Actually finishing something you started or is your group just not competent enough to hold it?
Have you considered that many people are interested in the fight and not in the sov/ihubs/whatever ?
Have you considered that, since the nodes will regen, a lot less fights can be expected ?
Have you considered that, since the anom buff, you can park 600 pilots in the same constellation and they all have something to grind, making our current universe way too big for the low population in 00 ?
Have you considered that the game does not need a better, juicer carrot, but on the contrary a lower density of the riches, that would create conflicts after ~4 years of relative peace ?

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

Quesa
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#90 - 2015-09-11 22:39:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Quesa
Maybe I'm too tired to say this but I seem to have spotted a typo:

Quote:
All Entosis capture progress for owned structures, command nodes for owned structures and online station services will regenerate towards full owner control if nobody has an active link running. This regeneration only applies when the structure is partially contested, not while reinforced.

The pace of this automatic regeneration will be slower than active linking from defenders, but it provides another option for defenders to choose between after they have driven off their attackers.


Also, you're using two different types of scales (seconds and minutes) for your http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/67557/1/tableforsov.png
chart showing regen times. (this is just me nit-picking though, sorry!)
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2015-09-11 22:44:48 UTC
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:

You realize if you come across a gate bubbled like that.. all you do is wave the magic ticket wand at a GM.. and those players who dropped all those Bubbles will feel very sorry. while you can Bubble a gate.. only X amount of bubbles may be used. Any amount of Cans/bubbles around gates that start to effect the loading of someones computers is considered bannable and an exploit. CCP has swung that magic hammer many times on players, suspending them and banning them for multiple offences.


It is a fair whack before it can be claimed to be lag inducing, as I'm sure you well know.

My point remains, relying on an edge case of lag inducing bubbles and GM hand waving doesn't strengthen your argument.

What should have happened is as I said, minimum align time, lower speed. Debatable sundries would be higher fuel costs and high cycle times (to allow running them down in time).

This swings the pendulum too far back the other way.
Baron Holbach
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#92 - 2015-09-11 22:48:20 UTC
this 5 day max fatigue is joke ... most of capital pilots (if they are playing) are active player who would usually want to play more than once a week in weekend.... while i agree its nice that you can't ***** youself 2hard when over jumping - in large picture its quite useless change - i never managed to get much over day of fatiqu for playing smart... i once once managed to jump my fatiqu over week and that was last jumps to move my titan and i just made those jumps knowing i never have change to use it and while logged off and inactive it has all the time in world to wait until fatigue goes away

PLEASE INCRASE BLACK OPS FATIQU BONUS - THIS 50% IS TOTAL JOKE... 90% LIKE JF WOULD ACTUALLY GET THAT SHIP BACK TO GAME AS SOMETHING FUN TO USE AGAIN :P with current 50% bonus ja bit more max range it still means you can do 3-4 jumps a day unless you want to wait hour between jumps ... what usually means 1 change for hotdroop :S
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#93 - 2015-09-11 22:49:09 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Have you considered Actually finishing something you started or is your group just not competent enough to hold it?
Have you considered that many people are interested in the fight and not in the sov/ihubs/whatever ?
Have you considered that, since the nodes will regen, a lot less fights can be expected ?
Have you considered that, since the anom buff, you can park 600 pilots in the same constellation and they all have something to grind, making our current universe way too big for the low population in 00 ?
Have you considered that the game does not need a better, juicer carrot, but on the contrary a lower density of the riches, that would create conflicts after ~4 years of relative peace ?


The problem is SOV for the average member doesn't offer As much riches as many claim. Hell its why I personally rather rent. I pay less in the long run and short run then I would on Infrastructure and Defense of assets. If I seen a reason to take Sov that outweighed what I made on my FW or Incursion alts.. my corp would not be renting.. but brawling again. As it stands now tho. I can putz around in null and make more Isk per hour in hi-sec or low-sec warfare zones. It's why the majority of pilots across all alliances in all sov areas have Incursion alts. No way am I saying change Faction Warfare or Incursions, I like my isk. But as for Reasons to fight in other regions and take Sov elsewhere. I have no reason to risk my toys for Sov, when I can get the better benefits elsewhere.

The big empires have no reason to kick over each others sandcastles when nothing of Value is sitting in the neighbors yard. Sure you can look at Lowering the density of what is around each Sov area. But it has to be done in a way that would effect the Leadership chains of the large and small alliances - Sov holding or not. Moons at one point drove conflict then they spread the value everywhere. Many suggestions have gone into these forums on how to change wealth redistribution of Sov. Having moons run out, making moons change what you can mine in certain cycles, etc. None of it is anything that would drive anyone to kick a castle over that isn't already well stocked up. Null Sov needs something new built into it to make empires want to go and fight elsewhere. Having something change that is long stocked up would only effect them if those assets were getting destroyed. They still need a reason to Exhaust the stocks. Not sit on them and chuckle buying what they need out of market hubs.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#94 - 2015-09-11 22:53:20 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Quote limit.

Querns wrote:

Cynos can be nullified -- you can put a covert cyno on a covert, nullified strategic cruiser and sneak any number of people behind the dread bubble wall, then refit to a more combat-oriented configuration using mobile depots once you've arrived.

You can also shoot the bubbles. A large bubble costs 10m (20m for T2), so if you consistently blow them up, you can probably encourage the bubble havers to stop throwing money away. Anchored bubbles just aren't that big of a deal. Their defense of sovereignty is hardly meaningful at all -- at best, they slow down people hunting ratters. A sovereignty conquering force should have little issue destroying them.


It is still a hilarious design goal fail.

Tell me, if a minimum align time of 4s and a speed limit of 3k was enforced...what would the problem be?

You should not be able to hide behind anchorables so easily, it is every bit as big a flaw as the current model - except now it is in sov holders favour, so I guess that is ok.....?

I guess I am not understanding the outrage. How does having to slowboat through some bubbles meaningfully affect sov warfare?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#95 - 2015-09-11 22:55:38 UTC
i would never have thought that nullsec will receive timer rollbacks before FW. Kinda funny :)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#96 - 2015-09-11 22:56:36 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Have you considered Actually finishing something you started or is your group just not competent enough to hold it?
Have you considered that many people are interested in the fight and not in the sov/ihubs/whatever ?
Have you considered that, since the nodes will regen, a lot less fights can be expected ?
Have you considered that, since the anom buff, you can park 600 pilots in the same constellation and they all have something to grind, making our current universe way too big for the low population in 00 ?
Have you considered that the game does not need a better, juicer carrot, but on the contrary a lower density of the riches, that would create conflicts after ~4 years of relative peace ?

So, you're only interested in generating fights, and not in actually conquering sov. Why should the system cater to you? Sovereignty warfare should be about contesting sovereignty, not creating meaningless fights with nothing on the line. Sure, the system can't deduce the intent of either the attacker or the defender, but the spirit of the mechanic should keep this in mind wherever possible.

The Imperium has a zero-tolerance policy towards attempts on our sovereignty, no matter the intentions of the attacker. I see no reason why any other sov holder should act differently. Plan accordingly.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2015-09-11 22:58:55 UTC
Massive respect, CCP!

I absolutely hated the first iteration of Aegis Sov and was pretty vocal about the shortcomings. Very happy to see these steps that are in the right direction.

o7

If I may, 5 days may be too soon of a cooldown timer, as we don't want to make weekend hoping a thing. Perhaps 10 days?

Also, perhaps a 50-minute regen timer is too short of a window for the attacker. I think it's fair for the shortest regen window to straddle the shortest vulnerability window possible at highest ADM (so 4 hrs?) so that the attacker has a good chunk of the next vulnerability window to show up in and contest. In other words, make the regen multiple ~0.04x instead of 0.2x for stations, ihubs and TCUs, for example.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2015-09-11 23:04:26 UTC
Querns wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Quote limit.

Querns wrote:

Cynos can be nullified -- you can put a covert cyno on a covert, nullified strategic cruiser and sneak any number of people behind the dread bubble wall, then refit to a more combat-oriented configuration using mobile depots once you've arrived.

You can also shoot the bubbles. A large bubble costs 10m (20m for T2), so if you consistently blow them up, you can probably encourage the bubble havers to stop throwing money away. Anchored bubbles just aren't that big of a deal. Their defense of sovereignty is hardly meaningful at all -- at best, they slow down people hunting ratters. A sovereignty conquering force should have little issue destroying them.


It is still a hilarious design goal fail.

Tell me, if a minimum align time of 4s and a speed limit of 3k was enforced...what would the problem be?

You should not be able to hide behind anchorables so easily, it is every bit as big a flaw as the current model - except now it is in sov holders favour, so I guess that is ok.....?

I guess I am not understanding the outrage. How does having to slowboat through some bubbles meaningfully affect sov warfare?


It dimishes the commitment to living in space, you have a greatly reduced need for real pilots in space when a fleet can be formed based on intel alts x jumps out knowing full well you can block and hide behind anchorables- - the enemy can't move quickly.

Don't mistake me, I may be an alt, but I live in WH are we are facing far greater problems than null will with these mechanics come citadels:

You currently need needed an entosis alt/system, we will need an alt/structure and "living" out of our space is impossible by comparison as anomalies do not work the same way.

So that said, I have sympathy with the complaints - which is why I suggest align lower bounds and a lower max speed. It allows people living in places to have a (pretty trivial) odds of catching people by active piloting/living but keeps a low bar with regard to "passive" defences. I was vehemently against removing the mass penalty, for example, I wanted it pushed even higher.

I want to see active fleets rewarded, I don't want passive defences to be the one stop shop for defence. They will be, once again.

A lot of people hate nullification but it's the only decent counter to anchorable spam.
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2015-09-11 23:08:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Awkward Pi Duolus
Quesa wrote:
nit-picking

Unnecessarily so :) Both figures show the information in the units that is important. I wouldn't want to have to convert to second for the first, or minutes in the second.


Reppyk wrote:
Have you considered that many people are interested in the fight and not in the sov/ihubs/whatever ?
Have you considered that, since the nodes will regen, a lot less fights can be expected ?
Have you considered that, since the anom buff, you can park 600 pilots in the same constellation and they all have something to grind, making our current universe way too big for the low population in 00 ?
Have you considered that the game does not need a better, juicer carrot, but on the contrary a lower density of the riches, that would create conflicts after ~4 years of relative peace ?

Have you considered that everything you are whining about has nothing to do with sov?


Baron Holbach wrote:
this 5 day max fatigue is joke ... most of capital pilots (if they are playing) are active player who would usually want to play more than once a week in weekend.... while i agree its nice that you can't ***** youself 2hard when over jumping - in large picture its quite useless change - i never managed to get much over day of fatiqu for playing smart... i once once managed to jump my fatiqu over week and that was last jumps to move my titan and i just made those jumps knowing i never have change to use it and while logged off and inactive it has all the time in world to wait until fatigue goes away

PLEASE INCRASE BLACK OPS FATIQU BONUS - THIS 50% IS TOTAL JOKE... 90% LIKE JF WOULD ACTUALLY GET THAT SHIP BACK TO GAME AS SOMETHING FUN TO USE AGAIN :P with current 50% bonus ja bit more max range it still means you can do 3-4 jumps a day unless you want to wait hour between jumps ... what usually means 1 change for hotdroop :S

Both the items you suggest would roll back power projection limitations, which have been painful but beneficial in my mind. Any thoughts on how you could prevent the rampant power projection issues from before Phoebe, if what you suggest comes to pass?

afkalt wrote:

It is still a hilarious design goal fail.

Tell me, if a minimum align time of 4s and a speed limit of 3k was enforced...what would the problem be?

You should not be able to hide behind anchorables so easily, it is every bit as big a flaw as the current model - except now it is in sov holders favour, so I guess that is ok.....?

So lemme get his straight - you want the sov, but you find it too difficult to coast the 20 seconds it would take you to clear the bubbles?
Dreiden Kisada
State War Academy
Caldari State
#100 - 2015-09-11 23:08:45 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Have you considered Actually finishing something you started or is your group just not competent enough to hold it?
Have you considered that many people are interested in the fight and not in the sov/ihubs/whatever ?
Have you considered that, since the nodes will regen, a lot less fights can be expected ?
Have you considered that, since the anom buff, you can park 600 pilots in the same constellation and they all have something to grind, making our current universe way too big for the low population in 00 ?
Have you considered that the game does not need a better, juicer carrot, but on the contrary a lower density of the riches, that would create conflicts after ~4 years of relative peace ?


But they aren't. They want to troll the sov holders in a "made you respond" kind of way. Or catch some dewey eyed newbie who's all "I got dis notification thingy wats that guys i'm on fire :v" and pod him so their killboard goes up one more notch.